Greatest Canadian Athlete???

[oldbones]

Clara Hughes (age 37!) today won a bronze medal in 5000m long track skating bringing her total to 6 medals. She is the only athlete to win multiple medals in winter and summer Olympics (3 others have won medals in both but not multiple). She is also a former world record holder in 10,000m long track.

Does this qualify her as Canada's greatest?

Many state it is Wayne Gretzky or even Steve Nash ... tv commentator stated this so ... add salt where needed


(not running related but .... )

[Destroyer]

my vote is for Eric Gillis. We all know of his running ability, but have you ever seen that guy on the basketball court? straight baller!

[SI]

Feb 24, 2010 18:14:45 GMT -5 oldbones said:

Does this qualify her as Canada's greatest?

Many state it is Wayne Gretzky or even Steve Nash

Wayne Gretzky isn't even the greatest hockey player for crying out loud.

[abrown]

You don't think so?

[SI]

No.

[pq]

Feb 24, 2010 20:20:46 GMT -5 SI said:

Wayne Gretzky isn't even the greatest hockey player for crying out loud.

Fact or opinion?

---

I watched her skate and it was one of my favourite parts of the Games so far, came close to the feeling I had watching Joannie Rochette skate last night.

Nice work Clara!

[SI]

Fact.

[spaff]

Feb 24, 2010 20:31:32 GMT -5 abrown said:

You don't think so?

Great hockey player ever.....#4!

[bbw]

Feb 24, 2010 22:21:37 GMT -5 spaff said:

Feb 24, 2010 20:31:32 GMT -5 abrown said:

You don't think so?

Great hockey player ever.....#4!

more like #3

Wade Belak

[bcg]

Why some people have trouble acknowledging Gretzky as the greatest hockey player of all time always leaves me perplexed. He absolutely crushed every other player in goals and assists- no one else has ever come close- and just as in track "the stats don`t lie"

[tree]

A hockey debate on tnfnorth? I like it.

I'm with SI. Gretzky was an awesome player and everything, but he was on some powerfull teams and goaltending had a huge effect on stats from back then. Not to mention that there is much more than goal scoring ability when defining a good hockey player.

[trackstar]

He was also the most clutch player of all time. The guy put up ridiculous offensive numbers in the playoffs (first in pretty much every stat), and he was on good teams in large part because they had the best player in the world (LA and Edmonton were nothing special before they got him) not the other way around. It's hard to compare the two because they were different positions, different eras and had different career lengths, but judging by Gretzky's resume, no one can be considered objectively better than him.

[journeyman]

SI: there's no lmgfy to save you now. If not #99 then who? And what is the criteria?

I agree that it is tough to compare stats across eras, but if you look at how far ahead he was of everyone else in his era, you get an idea. I don't recall my family hockey pool having to split any other player up into goals and assists (and yes, my family hockey pool is pretty much the standard when it comes to determining hockey greatness).

Seriously though, if not Wayne, then who? I think good arguments can be made for Gordie Howe, Rocket Richard and Bobby Orr. Beliveau perhaps as well. But to dismiss him so bluntly you must be being deliberately confrontational.

As for the original question (greatest athlete, not greatest Olympian--it is easier to show that she is that, as winning medals would be the criteria), I was thinking about how it is possible for speed skaters to win Olympic medals over various distances, and how rare that is in track events of similar distance. Nurmii or Viren come to mind, but the distances in long track are more comparable to 800-5000m, rather than 5k-10k. So does that mean it is easier to succeed at long track? If so, does that diminish her achievement? Is it also diminished by the fact that her sport is not truly a global sport (neither is cycling)? I think the title of greatest athlete needs to go to someone who achieves a physical feat--winning Olympic medals is more a function of circumstance. As far as Canadians go, I'm not sure who else to pick. I would not pick a team sport player. Please do not bring up Haley Wickenheiser as Softball is about as much a sport as baseball, i.e. not much at all, and dominating at women's hockey is again, more a matter of circumstance than achievement. Some would suggest Chantal Petticlerc, and I would again say that if you look at the numbers, her medals are not that impressive: how many people does she beat? Someone who makes the able bodied final in a distance event is probably a better athlete. Bruny and Donovan are way above her class. Bailey might be Canada's greatest athlete.

The definitive answer though is Iron Mike Sharpe.

[HHH]

Feb 25, 2010 0:32:49 GMT -5 journeyman said:

Seriously though, if not Wayne, then who? I think good arguments can be made for Gordie Howe, Rocket Richard and Bobby Orr. Beliveau perhaps as well. But to dismiss him so bluntly you must be being deliberately confrontational.

SI being deliberately confrontational? Never

[livefree]

theres a great piece in Once a runner (by john l. parker for anyone who doesnt know) pages 61-63 about this.... its really hard to compare athletes of different sports. and in all honesty they're all great athletes but to say that a individual is the "greatest" is ludacris. this by the way is my opinon also on comparing athletes of differnt time periods (ie: Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant.)

[SI]

I can appreciate why anyone under the age of about 50 or slightly less would get this wrong.

[bbw]

Feb 25, 2010 0:05:22 GMT -5 trackstar said:

(LA and Edmonton were nothing special before they got him)

I agree that the great on's stats are absolutely insane, but you cant go around saying that messier coffey and kurri were just nobodys on that edmonton team. Sure wayne was the best out there, but he did have significant help from those players and others.

[weather]

In the first half of the 20th century, it was Lionel Conacher and Bobbie Rosenfeld who picked as the greatest athletes of the half century. Both excelled at a number different sports. In our modern world the decline of the multisport athlete has been so significant, it would be difficult to find someone who fulfill this title. Clara Hughes could be dubbed our greatest Olympian for being the only athlete ever to win multiple medals over both Olympics over a number of Olympiads.
As for greatest athlete, she could definitely get votes. Another candidate, Steve Nash, who is also an accomplished soccer player (his brother was on the national team). John Traveres- the uncle of the hockey player is considered amoung the greatest lacrosse players of all time and he played football at university.
As for hockey players, I fall into the Bobby Orr was the Greatest, not Gretzky. As a defenseman he won the Art Ross Trophy for scoring! That just doesn't happen. His career was cut far too short
Not to forget the women, Wickenheiser could receive mention, as could Nancy Greene, Klassen or to bring it back to track Jessica Zelinka- Canada's top Heptathlete.

There's a few names for the debate.

[Roy]

I can appreciate why anyone over the age of about 50 or slightly less would get this wrong. No one can surpass the athletic accomplishments of our childhood heroes.

Feb 25, 2010 7:50:12 GMT -5 SI said:

I can appreciate why anyone under the age of about 50 or slightly less would get this wrong.

[SI]

You just made my point.

[pq]

Feb 25, 2010 7:50:12 GMT -5 SI said:

I can appreciate why anyone under the age of about 50 or slightly less would get this wrong.

So SI, who's your pick? And since it's made on a factual basis, present us with your arguments in support.

These "greatest" discussions are silly to a certain degree, since there's no objective measure, and "greatest" is in the eye of the beholder, SI's claims of "fact" to the contrary. That said, I'm not sure how you dismiss Gretzky. If you're going to argue he was great because played around other great players, you need to then make the next logical leap and acknowledge that he was head and shoulders above all these other great players.

[SI]

I would have thought it was obvious. And Gretzky was also a childhood hero of mine since I watched his exploits as a kid when he was a kid in my hometown. I will acknowledge that anyone that I didn't see live of those mentioned(like Richard) probably deserves consideration.

[pq]

Feb 25, 2010 9:25:40 GMT -5 SI said:

I would have thought it was obvious.

Yes, I realize you think everyone can read your mind, but I'll admit I can't. So, you got nothing?

[MattMc]

While I never saw Bobby Orr play, he is the only legitimate threat to Gretzky's all-time best status. Look at his stats-- say 'wow', then remember he was a defenceman!

I think the most 'talented' ever may not be Gretz or Orr, but Lemieux. Given what he did with the back and hip problems (not to mention lymphoma), his numbers are straight up obscene. 199 pts in 76gp and 160pts in 60 gp! If only those 60gp were 80 he could have scared the single season record!

Orr's best season: 78gp 37G 102A +124! Plus 124 is just nasty.

[SI]

Feb 25, 2010 10:01:58 GMT -5 MattMc said:

While I never saw Bobby Orr play

You should look at what you tube stuff is available. Seriously.

Feb 25, 2010 10:01:58 GMT -5 MattMc said:

Lemieux. Given what he did with the back and hip problems (not to mention lymphoma)

Keep in mind that Orr played a portion of his career basically on one leg(and not like Vonn with her ridiculous German cheese treated injury).

[wetcoast]

Gretzky was the greatest hockey player of all time, for those of you who refuse to accept that, you are jealous of something, maybe that he was a skinny, blonde-ish little nice guy or was in the media so much for 15 - 20 years that you got sick of him.

He lives(d) and breathes hockey, he has forgotten more about hockey than you will ever know. He can quote facts from the past - odd stuff - it was his all-consuming life. That type of passion made him become the best.

Many people said he didn't have a hard slap shot, but it was actually pretty solid. He wasn't fast, except for the first 20 feet he was unbeatable. He was physical, but he played box lacrosse - a more physical sport than hockey.

His stats speak volumes, he was a monster. Lemieux had Jagr, Stevens, Francis and others so don't give me that crap about Kurri and Messier. Kurri had Gretz....get it.

[oldbones]

I don't agree that debating who is the greatest is a futile task (if anything you get a small list).

I would contend that indeed it is one of those interesting areas where one has to consider both qualitative and quantitative aspects ... (understanding the assumptions of such tasks ... i.e. eras, rule changes, new technology, PEDs, etc.)

Stats are the initial benchmark (does the athlete break records, by how much, how long do they stand, how long did the athlete compete and be competitive, etc ...).

After this initial analysis you have a short list of people ... then the qualitative aspects help reduce the field again. Stats are just numbers but did the athlete come through at the right times (peaking and clutch plays, did they improve the people they played with, performances under pressure,etc).


For hockey: Wayne Gretzky



Anyone remember who Clara Hughes is?

[SI]

Feb 25, 2010 11:52:12 GMT -5 wetcoast said:

Gretzky was the greatest hockey player of all time, for those of you who refuse to accept that, you are jealous of something, maybe that he was a skinny, blonde-ish little nice guy or was in the media so much for 15 - 20 years that you got sick of him.

??

Gretzky didn't revolutionize the game. Orr did.

Feb 25, 2010 11:52:12 GMT -5 wetcoast said:

Lemieux had Jagr, Stevens, Francis and others so don't give me that crap about Kurri and Messier. Kurri had Gretz....get it.

You are making the point. Guys like Messier and Coffey(and Lemieux's fellow players) were hall of famers with or without Gretzky(you just have to take a look at their stats when they weren't with him).

Without Orr, I suspect none of you would ever have even heard of Cashman, Bucyk and Hodge(if you actually have-but check out their stats with and without Orr-they were basically journeymen otherwise). Even Esposito wasn't Esposito until he left Chicago and got traded to Boston.

[gtown]

Can you have a conversation about the history of hockey without mentioning Wayne Gretzky? No.

Can you have a conversation about the history of hockey without mentioning Bobby Orr? Definitely.

Facts. I'm not saying Orr isn't amongst the very best...but he is at best #2 behind Gretzky.

As far as greatest Canadian athlete, I look at it this way: Donovan Bailey was at one time the greatest athlete in the world. He was the Olympic and World record holder in the 100m - probably the most contested sporting event of all time. Can we say this about any other Canadian athlete? No.

Again, facts.

[Angus Macaulay]

check out this hockey data base.

www.hockeydb.com/

you can search the different players who you think are the greatest and compare.

Personally multiple 200+ point seasons is enough for me to pick Wayne. Though as a child growing up on the book "the hockey sweater" i was proud to wear #9 in my first season and will always have a high opinion of the Rocket