When to hit the Treadmill

[gwig]

Jan 5, 2010 20:46:19 GMT -5 ronb said:

I may be wrong, but I believe the goal is to run faster, not to act tougher...
So if that includes running indoors, or on a treadmill, running in the pool, swimming, cross-country skiing, riding a bike, or elliptical, or rowing machines, or circuit training, or whatever, that is all good if it works for the individual athlete and their program...
It can't be a bad thing to get your heart rate up, and increase the volume of training, and stay away from injuries. Of course, the specificity of running over the ground will cut in at some point, and needs to be respected, but within the context of the athlete running faster at the right time, and no other context is relevant, imo.

that's almost how I feel that if it's more about speed , but I think that the snow almost strengthens your legs and you can still push yourself as fast as you can go out in the snow and cold.

[HHH]

Jan 5, 2010 9:10:51 GMT -5 spaff said:

BTW...
Since you asked, I live in Eastern Ontario. No we don't have as many cold days each winter as you, but get our share. I had some great runs in spikes during the ice storm here where hydro was out for days on end and the roads and trails were skating rinks. PS. RR sells grippers and yaktraks if you need a pair

You don't have as many nor do they get as cold!

After trying out the Get-A-Grips one day after falling on my ass, I convinced our accessory buyer to add them to our lineup. We have had a hard time keeping them in stock ever since...

[coachfaulds]

Jan 3, 2010 19:40:54 GMT -5 1500rr said:

i guess what i am trying to ask is where do you draw the line, and when does an effective workout turn into an ineffective or counterproductive workout?

The only time you ever need to draw the line is if there is an ice storm and the running surface is so slipperly that you cannot safely stay on your feet. Other than that, run outside! I actually managed to sprain my ankle running intervals on a treadmill about 10 years ago. I was running pretty fast sections (around 5 min/mile pace) and I think that at speed the surface that you are landing on gets moving so fast that it can torque your footplant a little (at least that is the only explanation I can come up with) and about half an hour after I got off the treadmill my ankle was swelling up.

I am currently at a 20 year streak with at least one run per month outside in my shorts so I'm not a good person to ask about treadmill running

[saskatchewan]

Jan 5, 2010 20:46:19 GMT -5 ronb said:

I may be wrong, but I believe the goal is to run faster, not to act tougher...
So if that includes running indoors, or on a treadmill, running in the pool, swimming, cross-country skiing, riding a bike, or elliptical, or rowing machines, or circuit training, or whatever, that is all good if it works for the individual athlete and their program...
It can't be a bad thing to get your heart rate up, and increase the volume of training, and stay away from injuries. Of course, the specificity of running over the ground will cut in at some point, and needs to be respected, but within the context of the athlete running faster at the right time, and no other context is relevant, imo.

Great post ron!

[spaff]

Yes, good points Ron. The toughness thing is not the point though and I think some people are choosing to miss this. The point that I am trying to make is that there is absolutely NO reason that you cannot get out there and run every day safely in any weather AND still benefit from the training. Treadmills may be beneficial in certain workouts/when injuried/etc... but need not be totally relied upon to get you through the winter when you could easily and in most cases be further ahead to run outdoors.

HHH, no we certainly don't get as many cold days here, but having done some winter races in Yellowknife, I have a hunch of what it's like in the 'south'. ...And, yes, going through a ton of grippers at 041. I still prefer La Sportiva hobnails or sheet metal screws though.

Coachfaulds, you need to read this skyrunner.com/screwshoe.htm

[saskatchewan]

Jan 6, 2010 11:33:58 GMT -5 spaff said:

Yes, good points Ron. The toughness thing is not the point though and I think some people are choosing to miss this. The point that I am trying to make is that there is absolutely NO reason that you cannot get out there and run every day safely in any weather AND still benefit from the training. Treadmills may be beneficial in certain workouts/when injuried/etc... but need not be totally relied upon to get you through the winter when you could easily and in most cases be further ahead to run outdoors.

HHH, no we certainly don't get as many cold days here, but having done some winter races in Yellowknife, I have a hunch of what it's like in the 'south'. ...And, yes, going through a ton of grippers at 041. I still prefer La Sportiva hobnails or sheet metal screws though.

Coachfaulds, you need to read this skyrunner.com/screwshoe.htm

Spaff, i'm curious what you mean by your comment "and in most cases be further ahead to run outdoors"? Can you elaborate on this?

Personally I've found living in SK that from a training perspective i've been much further ahead each spring in those winters where i've utilized indoor and treadmill training for atleast 25% of my training time (the 25% is based on my earlier comments that in Regina i've found at least 25% of winter training conditions are sub-optimal to extremely poor). This of course is likely much different in other parts of the country and so my comments are specific to SK.

I've also never seen any published research that would indicate that indoor/treadmill running is counter-productive to fitness or second rate to outdoor training, so am interested to hear from those who are so strongly advocating outdoor running in the winter and downplay treadmill running.

[spaff]

As I've said, treadmill running can be beneficial for certain workouts and the choice is obviously yours which way you choose to train and how you feel your body is going to best respond. Your 25% rule is probably pretty fair for some people, but is it optimal? In an ideal world don't you think it would be better to train by running over the ground instead of having the ground move under you? You may not believe it, but you can bluff workouts on treadmills.

Once again SK, the point I am trying to make is to the people who claim they CAN'T run outdoors due to the conditions, can't run workouts due to the conditions, and that it is such an injury risk. That is BS.

Isn't it all about specificity? The best way to train for running is to run. Obviously crosstraining can be helpful at times, and treadmill running is about as close to the real thing as you can get, but it is different.

PS. I would be interested in seeing the published reports of the research done on your winters of both training methods;)

[tigger]

I've run outdoors at temperatures down to -39C for over an hour, and at temperatures in the -25C range (with additional wind chill on top of that) for up to 3 hrs, and I have yet to find a physical limit to winter running conditions. Each of us is a little bit different, so experimentation is necessary to determine what clothing to wear. I like to layer my clothes, and to add a layer for every 20 degrees or so. Because I sweat a lot I like to take an extra touque along to replace the first one when it becomes soaked with sweat.

The hazards to winter running are not always obvious. Roads can be narrower due to snowbanks. Corners may have less visibility for oncoming traffic. Of course there are the more obvious ones, such as icy footing. Another less obvious one is frostbite. I've frozen both cheeks and both ears over the years, and that's where I learned to bring along two sets of headgear. Windy conditions are often more hazardous than cold, especially if you do out and back runs. Sometimes I would just run with the wind and have someone pick me up at a predetermined time. That way I would avoid running into a cold wind on a sweaty face.

The first 10 to 20 minutes of a run can be uncomfortable, until your body warms up and begins pumping heat to your extremities. At -35C your shoes quickly begin to feel like to slabs of 3/4 plywood and your toes hurt like crazy! But after a few minutes you will feel a flood of warmth begin to penetrate your extremities, and it's actually comfortable to run as long as there is little wind. Really cold weather can be erie for running. Sounds seem to become magnified, and you would swear that car on the highway a half mile away is really only a hundred feet or so behind you. Snow has a definite squeak to it when you run at cold temperatures, in contrast to the crunch it has at wamer temps. I enjoy taking off my gloves after a few minutes and watching the frost build up on the hairs on the back of my hands. Seems strange to see frost on something that warm.

So the real answer to your question is that it depends on your preference. If you dislike cold weather then hit the treadmill instead. It's a useful tool, especially when an indoor track isn't available.

One final word of advice....be sure to protect your privates from wind. More than one of my buddies has gotten frost bitten in the nether regions.

Good luck, and above all....enjoy running.

[gwig]

I'm going to still be doing my long runs outside, but intervals will ofcourse be on an indoor track,

[saskatchewan]

As the treadmill hasn't arrived yet, i got a 12km tempo in at 5:30AM this morning. It was a balmy -37C (-42C with windchill) in Regina this morning as i ran past the graders and sanding trucks. Got to love SK in January.

I would concur with Matt's earlier comments on winter training.

Enjoy your training whether it be outside, inside or on the treadmill.

[knights]

here's my issue with treadmills: how do i know if it's accurate? 9mph seems to feel different on every treadmill i use.

[saskatchewan]

Jan 7, 2010 12:16:50 GMT -5 knights said:

here's my issue with treadmills: how do i know if it's accurate? 9mph seems to feel different on every treadmill i use.

In my experience, don't rely on the treadmill speed as an exact indicator; instead rely on your effort.

A treadmill is a great training tool, but don't become a slave to it.

Over time you will begin to judge effort and adjust your workouts accordingly. I often wear a heart monitor when i am getting back into treadmill training to help guage effort.

Also, different treadmills will provide different speeds for the same effort so don't rely on the km/hr on the screen as an exact figure because it isn't.

Hope that helps!

[knights]

not really, but good effort.

[rocknroll]

It also depends on what you have the incline at. Yes a certain speed will feel slower if your running at 0 incline. Our coach tells us to put it at 1% or 2% to best simulate running outside.

[oldlegs]

As someone who is known as the "treadmill master" to many of his running buddies, but who also grew up through 12 Winnipeg winters during my running life, perhaps I can comment.

To anyone who says you can handle it any temperature, you are nuts, but only when there is a nasty wind. The coldest I ran in was -42C, but it was pretty calm. Tigger's comments about the squeak of snow and creepy sounds are bang on. Quite frankly, anything colder than -28C with a major wind (25 kmh or higher) is brutal and you better be damn prepared (and always start off into the wind--there are horror stories of guys doing 5 miles out with a 30km wind in the back, building up a sweat, and then almost dying--literally-- on the way back on a prairie road).

To state you get good training during these days is simply wrong, and I would say for off-days they are fine, but why bother trying to do anything quality? Plus these days wear you down mentally year after year, as HHH suggested. I still recall a brutal winter in 1989, and will always remember losing my motivation to run for quite some time because of particularly nasty, cold and windy November and December cold snap (knowing the worst was still to come after Xmas). To check to see if my memory was correct I actually went to Environment Canada to confirm...for 12 straight days from DEC 11 TO DEC 22 it was brutally windy and cold. Here are the actual details for all you Ontario "toughies". How many days would you have lasted?:

Date High Low Wind/ kmh
Dec 11 -24.5 -29.5 31
Dec 12 -25.7 -31.3 31
Dec 13 -26.5 -35.5 31
Dec 14 -25.1 -35.5 31
Dec 15 -18.6 -27.3 31
Dec 16 -19.6 -24.6 31
Dec 17 -21.0 -30.4 31
Dec 18 -27.5 -34.3 31
Dec 19 -30.5 -36.5 31
Dec 20 -31.7 -37.0 33
Dec 21 -27.2 -35.5 31
Dec 22 -24.3 -32.4 41

[SI]

Jan 11, 2010 21:03:07 GMT -5 oldlegs said:

there are horror stories of guys doing 5 miles out with a 30km wind in the back, building up a sweat, and then almost dying--literally-- on the way back on a prairie road).

There's a Darwinism for you.

[Smithwicks]

There are major differences when running outside compared to the treadmill.

1 - On a stationary day, if you're running approximately 4:00/km, about 5% of the energy you expend is simply on wind resistance you create by running. Wind resistance is proportional to the surface area of the subject, so this value can vary amongst individuals.

2 - According to:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1859750/
If you travel faster then 4.8m/s, your biomechanics changes and the stride length decreases and stride rate increases on a treadmill. The support leg also spends an increased amount of time on the treadmill. This is believed to give "mini" breaks and therefore is less taxing on the body.

3 - Mechanically, your body must contend with landing on a surface that is moving in the opposite direction. The rearward rolling treadmill decreases the need for your hamstrings to pull your upper body forward; however, your hip flexors have to work harder to control your foot being dragged backwards and in pulling your lower leg forward. A decrease in push off ability (caused by the moving belt) further increases the load on your hip flexors.
The above was lifted from the following link:
sweat365.com/library/articles/sports-specific/running/treadmill-vs-land/
Trying to find the actual study which supports this.

4 - I can't get a link to the actual paper from work, but a 1% incline on the treadmill is suppose to exert the same amount of energy as running outside in stationary wind. This doesn't imply the same muscles are utilized, just the same caloric effort.
A 1% treadmill grade most accurately reflects the energetic cost of outdoor running. Journal of Sports Science, 1996 Aug;14(4):321-7.

[oldster]

Jan 12, 2010 11:42:49 GMT -5 Smithwicks said:

There are major differences when running outside compared to the treadmill.

1 - On a stationary day, if you're running approximately 4:00/km, about 5% of the energy you expend is simply on wind resistance you create by running. Wind resistance is proportional to the surface area of the subject, so this value can vary amongst individuals.

2 - According to:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1859750/
If you travel faster then 4.8m/s, your biomechanics changes and the stride length decreases and stride rate increases on a treadmill. The support leg also spends an increased amount of time on the treadmill. This is believed to give "mini" breaks and therefore is less taxing on the body.

3 - Mechanically, your body must contend with landing on a surface that is moving in the opposite direction. The rearward rolling treadmill decreases the need for your hamstrings to pull your upper body forward; however, your hip flexors have to work harder to control your foot being dragged backwards and in pulling your lower leg forward. A decrease in push off ability (caused by the moving belt) further increases the load on your hip flexors.
The above was lifted from the following link:
sweat365.com/library/articles/sports-specific/running/treadmill-vs-land/
Trying to find the actual study which supports this.

Paging Dr. Hutch.

And I'm with oldlegs on this one. You're crazy if you don't avail yourself of a t-mill during the winter months. The benefits-- both physical and psychological-- of being able to strip down, get up a sweat, spin your legs, and get a reprieve from hard surfaces are undeniable. Given the choice between building your character and getting faster, I think the choice should be obvious. I didn't start using a treadmill regularly in training until half way through my career, and I've noticed a huge difference in my conditioning and general readiness to train hard and race in the spring since then. I still run at least 5 days a week outside all winter, but I will stay on the mill for as long as it takes when the weather-- and particularly the footing-- are particularly bad. Besides, when it comes to mental hardening, I think the mill ranks up there will training in the cold, albeit for different reasons.

[tundra]

4 - I can't get a link to the actual paper from work, but a 1% incline on the treadmill is suppose to exert the same amount of energy as running outside in stationary wind. This doesn't imply the same muscles are utilized, just the same caloric effort.
A 1% treadmill grade most accurately reflects the energetic cost of outdoor running.A 1% treadmill grade most accurately reflects the energetic cost of outdoor running. Journal of Sports Science, 1996 Aug;14(4):321-7. <Smithwicks>

Here are a few equivalency tables for those that like to use the treadmill. Again, it's an effort or caloric equivalent, but I like to use the bottom chart. I have no hard journal evidence to support it, but methinks Jack Daniels has something akin to this in his literature. The second one listed leans towards using 2% of incline to get past the lack of resistance.

www.hillrunner.com/training/tmillchart.php


www.anglebar.com/chaneyfamilydotcom/runwithed/treadmill.html

[Smithwicks]

Oldster:
I wasn't trying to advocate outdoor running as being better by any means, just letting others know the key differences between the two. After leaving London and moving to Toronto, I've been using the treadmill fairly frequently in the winter months. After wreaking myself early last month on the bikepath from ice, I refuse to push my luck a second time.

I agree with you that there is a psychological toughness to being able to run on the treadmill. It's so convenient to simply end the run with no reprieve. I find the last 2 miles (drives me nuts all treadmills are imperial) to be the most taxing mentally. I'm constantly watching the odometer and doing the math in my head.

There are two things which bother me about treadmills. The first is I tend to get blisters fairly frequently. I can only assume this is caused by the homogeneous movement for an hour. I try to break the strides up every so often, but tend to go back to my bodies natural motion. And secondly, there always seems to be someone at the gym who tries to keep pace. When I'm trying to do a steady workout of 10.5 mph for 50-60 minutes, I don't know why every other male who hits the treadmill needs to do the same.

[ahutch]

Jan 12, 2010 12:02:27 GMT -5 oldster said:

Paging Dr. Hutch.

Well, now that you mention it, I did write an article on this last year (directed at a fairly general audience):
www.theglobeandmail.com/life/treadmill-v-outdoors---the-difference-is-minimal/article966581/

The study I mention in that article (the most recent relevant one I'm aware of) is this one: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18460996

As the study points out, there's really no consensus on whether treadmill running "should" be different from overground running, apart from the effects of wind resistance. Here's a quote:

"Although the kinematics of treadmill and overground running have been reported to be similar or only slightly different, some believe that the kinetics of treadmill running and overground running are fundamentally different. Winter (23) had noted that the average velocity of the center of mass when running on a treadmill was zero and hypothesized that runners receive energy from the treadmill at foot contact and impart energy to the belt at toe-off. van Ingen Schenau (20), however, showed analytically that if treadmill belt speed is constant and a reference frame moving with the treadmill belt is employed, the mechanics of treadmill and overground running were identical (neglecting only wind resistance)."

Leaving aside the theoretical discussion, what these researchers found was that (a) yes, there are statistically significant kinematic and kinetic differences between treadmill and overground, but (b) they're small enough that they don't really matter.

The quality of the treadmill matters a lot, according to the authors. If the belt speed is (very close to) perfectly constant and the belt isn't too soft, then your stride is like it would be outside. Irregular belt speed and a mushy belt force you to adjust your stride.

One important point about compensating for the lack of wind by using incline: they don't scale with speed in the same way. The 1% rule applies for speeds between about 4:00/km and 5:00/km, but if you're going faster, you need a higher incline. (If you're running at 3:00/km with the incline at 1%, you're consuming about 2% less oxygen than you would outside, according to the paper Smithwicks cites. That may explain why many people find tempo runs feel surprisingly good on the treadmill!)

[SI]

Nowhere in any of my posts, at least, have I made this out to be some sort of macho thing. I just prefer it outside and hate the treadmill and actually think you can do just as well outside, no matter what the weather(rarely does the weather get bad enough for a long enough stretch that you can't accomplish what you want to accomplish-maybe you have to adjust your schedule here and there but that's it). I got about the fittest I ever got one winter and did not do one indoor workout, track or otherwise-I just got tired of the 90 minutes there and back to York.

[kmaser]

Treadmills are okay and you can do some great workouts on them especially if the weather is really bad. Personally i would
rather train outdoors. A training partner of mine Peter Moore utilized them to great benefit along with Dr. Dave Smith to get
him into great shape during our rough prairie winters. Pete was a pretty good athlete. But we did do good quality distance workouts and ran 3k/5k races indoors to get in good shape. if you do a 2 hr run in cold weather and don't really worry about how fast you are going it gives you some pretty good background. Good training partners help. We used to hit the indoor track and run mile reps in sub 5. It helped us to run sub 15 min in the 5k and sub 4 in the 1500. You have to adapt to
the climate/facilties. It was okay running in -25C weather as long
as the wind didn't blow.

Cheers

Cheers

[saskatchewan]

Jan 12, 2010 18:05:56 GMT -5 SI said:

Nowhere in any of my posts, at least, have I made this out to be some sort of macho thing. I just prefer it outside and hate the treadmill and actually think you can do just as well outside, no matter what the weather(rarely does the weather get bad enough for a long enough stretch that you can't accomplish what you want to accomplish-maybe you have to adjust your schedule here and there but that's it). I got about the fittest I ever got one winter and did not do one indoor workout, track or otherwise-I just got tired of the 90 minutes there and back to York.

SI, are your weather comments specific to southern ontario or do they hold for all regions of this vast, and extremely varied country of ours? As Matt, oldlegs and others have indicated, training on the prairies in the winter can be extremely different then in other parts of the country.

[saskatchewan]

Jan 12, 2010 12:02:27 GMT -5 oldster said:

Jan 12, 2010 11:42:49 GMT -5 Smithwicks said:

There are major differences when running outside compared to the treadmill.

1 - On a stationary day, if you're running approximately 4:00/km, about 5% of the energy you expend is simply on wind resistance you create by running. Wind resistance is proportional to the surface area of the subject, so this value can vary amongst individuals.

2 - According to:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1859750/
If you travel faster then 4.8m/s, your biomechanics changes and the stride length decreases and stride rate increases on a treadmill. The support leg also spends an increased amount of time on the treadmill. This is believed to give "mini" breaks and therefore is less taxing on the body.

3 - Mechanically, your body must contend with landing on a surface that is moving in the opposite direction. The rearward rolling treadmill decreases the need for your hamstrings to pull your upper body forward; however, your hip flexors have to work harder to control your foot being dragged backwards and in pulling your lower leg forward. A decrease in push off ability (caused by the moving belt) further increases the load on your hip flexors.
The above was lifted from the following link:
sweat365.com/library/articles/sports-specific/running/treadmill-vs-land/
Trying to find the actual study which supports this.

Paging Dr. Hutch.

And I'm with oldlegs on this one. You're crazy if you don't avail yourself of a t-mill during the winter months. The benefits-- both physical and psychological-- of being able to strip down, get up a sweat, spin your legs, and get a reprieve from hard surfaces are undeniable. Given the choice between building your character and getting faster, I think the choice should be obvious. I didn't start using a treadmill regularly in training until half way through my career, and I've noticed a huge difference in my conditioning and general readiness to train hard and race in the spring since then. I still run at least 5 days a week outside all winter, but I will stay on the mill for as long as it takes when the weather-- and particularly the footing-- are particularly bad. Besides, when it comes to mental hardening, I think the mill ranks up there will training in the cold, albeit for different reasons.

Oldster, interesting comments. Not sure you are likely to convince SI but think yours is an interesting and useful example considering the high level you were able to attain and maintain for such a long period.

[SI]

Jan 13, 2010 9:55:27 GMT -5 saskatchewan said:

SI, are your weather comments specific to southern ontario or do they hold for all regions of this vast, and extremely varied country of ours? As Matt, oldlegs and others have indicated, training on the prairies in the winter can be extremely different then in other parts of the country.

I have run for stretches in WNY in weather close to what oldlegs outlined. School was canceled because of the wind basically and they are used to winter. I don't think metric so those days oldlegs listed were, on average, minus 13F with winds in the 20mph range. Those conditions wouldn't be at the same time. Not outlandish by any stretch. I can see why it would send some inside though. I just got dressed appropriately, started into the wind and adjusted my expectations as to what I was going to accomplish. I did a 20 miler in 1:57 in weather that wasn't quite that bad but close. Best time on the loop in great conditions was only 2 minutes faster so I don't think much was lost in training(which is oldster's primary point so, no, he won't convince me) and I don't think I would have been able to do that kind of workout on a treadmill.

[spaff]

Just to add to SI's example...
I don't think that the Klecker's (Barney runningminnesota.blogspot.com/2007/12/barney-klecker.html or Janis runningminnesota.blogspot.com/2007/11/janis-klecker.html ) seemed to have issues with 'uncomfortable' conditions either, though Janis mentions about supplementing some on the treadmill. Then there's a couple of other guys named Beardsley and Viren to add to the list.

[ahutch]

Of course, not everyone is a marathoner, ultramarathoner or trail runner. Running 20 miles in 1:57 in a snowstorm is one thing; running a decent session of mile reps (let alone 400m or 800m reps) after an ice storm when you're getting ready to run 1500m in a matter of weeks is a different challenge entirely.

[knights]

oldster: "Given the choice between building your character and getting faster, I think the choice should be obvious."

i think this pretty much sums up my opinion on the subject. if the treadmill can give you gains similar to running outside, it is worth it based on its' consistency and lower risk of injury. but if it does hamper proper stride length, it is better suited to base runs.

[SI]

And just for the record, I don't think you can totally discount to zero "building character" notwithstanding oldster's and ronb's comments to the contrary. I obviously don't have ronb's or oldster's coaching abilities or oldster's talent but isn't a large part of running mental? Isn't it possible that getting yourself outside in bad conditions builds mental toughness that can help your running? I don't know. Just asking. I am guessing ahutch can't point us to any studies so it would be just anecdotal evidence.