CIS Results?

[HHH]

Nov 18, 2009 22:44:06 GMT -5 lambert said:

If money alone brought people into the program, then the U of A would have at least one or two recruits from outside of Edmonton. On this year's CIS team only Max Leboeuf grew up outside of Edmonton, and he came to Edmonton for school (running isn't his main sport).

Of course, I guess it's hard to convince people to live in Edmonton in the winter...

It might help too if some good old fashioned recruiting were done as well...

[feens]

There's obviously going to be a number of factors involved. Being a student right now (and knowing a number of athletes who are currently in the NCAA or have recently finished), I could name a few likely factors (many which have been mentioned): money, prestige, location, competition, and recruiting.

Put yourself in an a young athlete's position...i.e. let's say I just finished top 10 at OFSAA XC. Chances are I'm going to receive a phone call from a few coaches down south. They will be offering me the chance to move away from home, live with a bunch of other athletes, where I'll attend what they market as a "top notch program", all for free, free living expenses, free gear, access to medical facilities, etc. There's also the fact that I see a whole lot of other of my fast peers being persuaded by the wonderful programs down south.

Or...I can sit down at my computer, and start researching which Canadian schools have good running programs. I can then also email the coaches (or perhaps one has called me if I'm lucky), and I can start researching which scholarships and bursaries are available, and how to apply to them. Also to be noted, if I'm looking out of province and am in depth in my research, I will also likely notice that there are many bursaries and such that are offered only to students from that respective province, and there are also considerations for living expenses if I move away (the other option being to choose to live at home, but that can significantly limit the choice as to where to attend).

Now, don't take this as me saying I think going South is the better option...I know athletes who hated it and others who have thrived. But you need to not think of it as an older, wiser athlete or coach, but as a possible awe-struck, Gr 12. athlete.

[mpd]

An interesting question: which team would dominate if we took the same athletes from 1999 and held an anniversary race in the next month? Who has stuck with it?

[BeachBoy]

other factors:
American schools offer finanacial aid to athletes once their eligibility is exhausted so that they can finish their degrees. Positions are available in the athletic departments as Grad Assistants, receive a stipend and financial aid, allowed to continue training and travel with the team. A masters program can be completed with no debt.

[Travisholmes]

The NCAA has a 5th year program. If you did not red-shirt and did not graduate in 4 years the NCAA will pay for your 5th year. It is also common to become a grad assistant and coach while getting your masters. I went to a small Div 1 school for a couple years before coming home simply because it was free. I knew I was never going to be olympic or even national calibre but it was free and warm. Why pay 6,000 dollars for tuition, plus housing, food etc...

[yards]

5th year. How does the CIS view NCAA athletes returning home to enroll in a graduate program in Canada? Can they compete right away? And if not then why?

[BeachBoy]

once eligibility is exhausted in the U.S., CI also considers the athlete done

[Parrott]

i think there is something to be said about the quality of education at certain institutions. Not that most of the US schools are worse, just Canadian schools are more consistent with each other. That being said sometimes employers in Canada look for a Canadian trained candidate. If you can run just as fast in Canada why not stay, you might be paying almost as much just to catch a plane home for holidays or the summer.

[yards]

Okay but CIS athletes get 5 years eligilbility; so in a sense then CIS is discriminating against Canadian athletes who attend school in the U.S. and then return home after graduation in order to enter a graduate program.

[Haller]

Nov 16, 2009 11:01:43 GMT -5 blahblahblah said:

It can't be helping the competitiveness of other schools and conferences in the CIS that Guelph gets to host National XC every single year. They basically get a better opportunity than anybody else to recruit the top juniors who may be looking to run for a CIS school. Sure, their program may not appeal to guys who are running 9:00 minutes for 3k in high school, since they may not make the team, but it will still appeal to studs who are running 8:30 in high school. If they can continue to attract one or two of these guys to their school each year, nobody's going to beat them. It's about time that Nationals went out West!

I wouldn't say that the "dominance of the OUA" was atypical to what you would expect any given year. They are usually stronger than other conferences but CANWEST put 4 women's teams in the top 7 and 4 men's teams in the top 11. No team podiums but I could see this change in the next few years. It was certainly a very weak year for Quebec though.

I'm a little late to reply to this comment but it's a joke. Guelph first hosted Nationals 2 years ago. So, first and second year university students were the only ones that ran here in high school before choosing their schools. How many 1st and 2nd year runners were on Guelph's squads that ran at CIs? I'll save you some time, exactly two. The rest were already in Guelph. Of those two, Rob Jackson is a local boy and was already going to be coming here. I'm not sure if it played a factor in Gen's decision but you can't claim that hosting the past two years had anything to do with winning any of the past double titles of the last four years. Up until next Saturday, it's been a normal cycle of Nationals anyways as most places host twice.

[weather]

In the past few years there has been some incredibly talented athletes who have stayed in Canada. There is some money available now school wise and the Brian Maxwell award has provided support as well. This , but far more important programs such as Guelph, Windsor and Mcmaster has helped keep the Carsons, Boorsmas and Jewetts at home. So I am not Guelph centric- Mcmaster has had at least one or two top 10 OFSAA girls over the past three years . I can only see this trend as continuing and hope all CIS schools keep up the progress.

[Travisholmes]

My flights home never totalled anything near what it would cost for tuition, books, fees, housing and meal plan. My flights were paid for by my fathers air miles so that was a great option for myself. I agree that the CIS has developed many great athletes, but what bout middle of the pack runners like myself that get to enjoy a new experience..why not? I mean I would have loved to stay on go to Guelph but it was not a financial option for myself. Plus, the American education system is not that bad. I transferred from a no name school (Kennesaw State University) to Ottawa U and I don't find the scary Canadian education system any different.

[LANNY !!!!!!1]

It's kinda funny that your still repping up your old school and the ncaa when you say you left after two years...

[susi]

As a parent of a distance runner who went "south" this fall, I can agree with oldster, at least for our runner, choosing to go to a NCAA- Division 1 school was a decision not taken lightly. As a "late bloomer" in track and cross country, our child was not highly recruited, and was a largely "unproven" talent. But a couple of good results in the fall of the Grade 12 year, and a few months of contact back and forth got enough attention to receive an offer of a near full scholarship.
I do think it is a falacy that all Division 1 coaches are not paying attention to the long term development of their atheletes. Some programs are not "win at all costs" and in the last few years the academic acheivement of the student-atheletes and teams has become an important part of the recognition (awards, etc.) at the conference and national level.
An interesting note is that although our child applied, and was accepted to several Ontario universities, not one of the track/cross country coaches even contacted. A little more interest and a little help with information on scholarships and burseries available would have been nice and could have made a difference in the final decision.

[nscoach67]

Nov 20, 2009 1:32:42 GMT -5 susi said:

As a parent of a distance runner who went "south" this fall,

If you happen to want to divulge this "good US" school, I have athletes that are thinking about where to go. It would be nice to have options of schools that ARE thinking about LTAD.

[lcarson]

Taleneted athletes such as Brown, Boorsma, Carson, Jackson and Jewett staying in Canada could largley be attributed to staying close to their club coaches and support systems that have been instrumental in their development for the past 5 years.

[blahblahblah]

Nov 19, 2009 17:09:14 GMT -5 Haller said:

Nov 16, 2009 11:01:43 GMT -5 blahblahblah said:

It can't be helping the competitiveness of other schools and conferences in the CIS that Guelph gets to host National XC every single year. They basically get a better opportunity than anybody else to recruit the top juniors who may be looking to run for a CIS school. Sure, their program may not appeal to guys who are running 9:00 minutes for 3k in high school, since they may not make the team, but it will still appeal to studs who are running 8:30 in high school. If they can continue to attract one or two of these guys to their school each year, nobody's going to beat them. It's about time that Nationals went out West!

I wouldn't say that the "dominance of the OUA" was atypical to what you would expect any given year. They are usually stronger than other conferences but CANWEST put 4 women's teams in the top 7 and 4 men's teams in the top 11. No team podiums but I could see this change in the next few years. It was certainly a very weak year for Quebec though.

I'm a little late to reply to this comment but it's a joke. Guelph first hosted Nationals 2 years ago. So, first and second year university students were the only ones that ran here in high school before choosing their schools. How many 1st and 2nd year runners were on Guelph's squads that ran at CIs? I'll save you some time, exactly two. The rest were already in Guelph. Of those two, Rob Jackson is a local boy and was already going to be coming here. I'm not sure if it played a factor in Gen's decision but you can't claim that hosting the past two years had anything to do with winning any of the past double titles of the last four years. Up until next Saturday, it's been a normal cycle of Nationals anyways as most places host twice.

Nowhere in my post did I state that the championships that Guelph has won the past few years have been because of this. Right after this post I also added that Guelph's success is also due to "great coaching and a good training atmosphere". I'm well aware that they are a class program in the CIS. I don't pretend to know whether hosting Nationals influenced any of the recent crop of recruits to come to Guelph, but I'm free to speculate. NCAA colleges spend a lot of money to bring in prospective athletes so they can meet the coaches and other athletes at the school. They do this for a reason and Guelph is able to bring in the top junior talent on a yearly basis. It certainly can't hurt their chances of recruiting even if they haven't got as many big names the past few years (although Genevieve Lalonde is a pretty big name).

Don't pretend that this has been a normal cycle of hosting Nationals. Athletics Canada's website lists Guelph as the host for 2010 as well. That will be FOUR years in a row. I don't believe that there's any news on where 2011 will be hosted as of yet. It used to be that Nationals would come out West every third year, which seems fair to me unless runners living in Ontario would be willing to subsidize the travel costs of runners from the West by paying high meet entry fees. If juniors believe that Nationals are going to be hosted by Guelph in perpetuity, it will be a strong financial incentive for them to go to school in Southern Ontario, no?

[Travisholmes]

Nov 19, 2009 23:33:26 GMT -5 LANNY !!!!!!1 said:

It's kinda funny that your still repping up your old school and the ncaa when you say you left after two years...

I left for personal reasons. Not because I did not love my coach, school, or teammates.

[Steve Weiler]

Nov 20, 2009 10:06:10 GMT -5 blahblahblah said:

It used to be that Nationals would come out West every third year, which seems fair to me unless runners living in Ontario would be willing to subsidize the travel costs of runners from the West by paying high meet entry fees. If juniors believe that Nationals are going to be hosted by Guelph in perpetuity, it will be a strong financial incentive for them to go to school in Southern Ontario, no?

Ontario clubs do pay subsidies when Canadian Championships are hosted in Ontario and our travel costs are reduced.

[lambert]

Edmonton made a bid for the 2009 and 2010 national cross country championships, but it was rejected. As I recall, the main reason cited against the bid was weather concerns. Guelph was given the championships for an additional two years instead.

[pmac]

Nov 20, 2009 10:06:10 GMT -5 blahblahblah said:

Don't pretend that this has been a normal cycle of hosting Nationals. Athletics Canada's website lists Guelph as the host for 2010 as well. That will be FOUR years in a row. I don't believe that there's any news on where 2011 will be hosted as of yet. It used to be that Nationals would come out West every third year, which seems fair to me unless runners living in Ontario would be willing to subsidize the travel costs of runners from the West by paying high meet entry fees. If juniors believe that Nationals are going to be hosted by Guelph in perpetuity, it will be a strong financial incentive for them to go to school in Southern Ontario, no?

Actually it is the normal cycle of hosting Nationals. Guelph hosted in 2007 and '08, and was re-awarded them over Edmonton for 2009 and 2010. As far as having Nationals in Ontario being unfair, how about the 60 Junior men from Ontario alone that flew out to BC when Nationals were held their in 2006- making up nearly half the field (129 were listed in the results). It makes perfect sense to hold Nationals in Ontario more often, because most of the entrants will be from there.

Also, the issue of the number of entrants in each race has to be considered. A quick comparison between the number of finishes in Vancouver in '06 to Guelph in '07 reveals that entries spiked a fair bit (gee, I wonder why...). Take a look:

Vancouver '06 Finishers: 129 Junior Men, 145 Junior Women, 71 Senior Men, 41 Senior Women

Guelph '07: 210 Junior Men, 162 Junior Women, 85 Senior Men, 59 Senior Women

And you can bet the entries have increased over the years Guelph has hosted. And who can blame them for wanting to host longer? They do a fantastic job.

As far as kids wanting to go to Ontario just because Nationals are being held there, I think you should take a look at the Guelph roster. www.athletics.uoguelph.ca/Varsity_Sport/_Teams/Cross_-_country/Roster

Those are mainly Ontario kids you're seeing. But evidently having nationals in Vancouver lured away Ontario talents such as Boorsma and Jackson to UBC and Simon Fraser...oh wait, that didn't happen. But yes, clearly it was hosting National cross country every year that lured Lalonde into choosing Guelph. It couldn't have been that likely no other Canadian school actively recruited her save sending her a generic package exclaiming how great the -insert school name here- athletic program is.

I also don't know anybody that would choose a school based on where a club championship is being held, just to save some cash. Maybe you'll be the example that changes that. I look forward to it.

[Rory]

Nov 20, 2009 11:08:45 GMT -5 lambert said:

Edmonton made a bid for the 2009 and 2010 national cross country championships, but it was rejected. As I recall, the main reason cited against the bid was weather concerns. Guelph was given the championships for an additional two years instead.

The severe weather excuse was total BS. Guelph has had snow every year they've hosted Nats. last year Edmonton had no snow and this year its looking like again there will be grass until mid december...

www.edmontontrafficcam.com/cams.php


Its too bad because HHH had a terrific course lined up.

[oldbones]

Nov 20, 2009 8:14:19 GMT -5 lcarson said:

Taleneted athletes such as Brown, Boorsma, Carson, Jackson and Jewett staying in Canada could largley be attributed to staying close to their club coaches and support systems that have been instrumental in their development for the past 5 years.

It would be interesting to study the development of the Canadian's that went to the NCAA during this time vs the ones that stayed home (age group comparison).

Did staying home improve development over that time period?


Someone must have already done this?

[journeyman]

Nov 20, 2009 12:49:22 GMT -5 oldbones said:

Nov 20, 2009 8:14:19 GMT -5 lcarson said:

Taleneted athletes such as Brown, Boorsma, Carson, Jackson and Jewett staying in Canada could largley be attributed to staying close to their club coaches and support systems that have been instrumental in their development for the past 5 years.

It would be interesting to study the development of the Canadian's that went to the NCAA during this time vs the ones that stayed home (age group comparison).
Did staying home improve development over that time period?
Someone must have already done this?

Are you trying to compare US vs Canadian programs or club vs university coaches? Either way, I doubt that any real statistical trends would emerge. Every athlete is an experiment of one. You can say that the above named athletes thrived because they stayed with their club coach, but then, it may have more to do with WHO their club coach is, than the fact that they did not change coaches. What about all the athletes who left a club coach to go run with DST? Did they deteriorate? Doesn't seem so.

As for US vs Canada, every individual is going to react in their own way to each program and coach. I don't think it is useful to make such comparisons. What about American kids who leave their high school coach for a university coach? How do they fare? The highest profile kid who decided to go back to his high school coach (Webb) ended up being a world-class American distance runner, but who knows which coach contributed the most to that. As for the rest, again, who knows.

The point of view of the wide-eyed grade 12 student is the correct one to take. It's easy to say, pick the best program, pick academics, go for the money...all of these are factors, but in the end it is going to come down to what works for that individual.

[pmac]

Nov 20, 2009 15:15:38 GMT -5 journeyman said:

What about American kids who leave their high school coach for a university coach? How do they fare? The highest profile kid who decided to go back to his high school coach (Webb) ended up being a world-class American distance runner, but who knows which coach contributed the most to that. As for the rest, again, who knows.

Not to nitpick, but in the case of Webb, there is in fact only one coach to credit- Ron Warhurst coached him only for one year, and Webb ran slower for Michigan than he did in his senior year of high school. Save that one year with Warhurst and Webb's (former) coach, Scott Raczko, has remained the same through every milestone he reached, be it his 3:53 mile in highschool or his 3:46 American record.

[blahblahblah]

2010

Canadian Half Marathon Championships
April 18
Montreal, QC

Canadian Marathon Championships
TBA
TBA

Canadian Track & Field Championships
July 29 - Aug 1
Toronto, ON

Canadian Junior Track & Field Championships
July 2-4
Moncton, NB

The Legion Canadian Youth Track & Field Championship
Aug.6-8
Ottawa, ON

Canadian 10km Championships
TBD
TBD

Canadian Cross-Country Championships
Nov. 27
Guelph, ON


2009

Canadian Half Marathon Championships
April 19
Montreal, QC

Canadian Marathon Championships
May 24
Ottawa, ON

Canadian Track & Field Championships (including 10,000m)
June 25-28
Toronto, ON

Canadian Junior Track & Field Championships
July 17-19
Charlottetown, PEI

The Legion Canadian Youth Track & Field Championship
Aug.8-9
Sherbrooke, QC

Canadian 10km Championships & TIMEX Series Finale
Oct. 17
Toronto, ON

Canadian Cross-Country Championships
Nov. 28
Guelph, ON


2008

Canadian Half Marathon Championships
April 20
Montreal, QC

Canadian Marathon Championships
May 25
Ottawa, ON

Canadian 10,000m Championships
June 4
Toronto, ON

Canadian Track & Field Championships
July 3-6
Windsor, ON

Canadian Junior Track & Field Championships
July 25-27
Abbotsford, BC

The Legion Canadian Youth Athletic Championship
Aug. 9-10
Sherbrooke, QC

TransCanada Canadian 10km Championships
Oct. 18
Ottawa, ON

AGSI Canadian Cross-Country Championships
Nov. 29
Guelph, ON

This is why cross country Nationals should go to the West and why it could make financial sense to live in Southern Ontario if you're planning on racing at National championships. Notice that there is 1 out of 20 championships, where the date and location have been chosen, that are situated West of Southern Ontario. Even the Maritimes get to host more National championships during this current 3 year span. The prairie provinces and B.C. account for more than 10 million of Canada's population, whereas the Maritimes have around 2.3 million. Ontario and Quebec do account for almost two thirds of Canada's population so nobody is saying that the majority of championships shouldn't be situated there but - come on - 1 out of 20 championships for a region comprising 1/3 of Canada's population... How did that happen?

For what it's worth, I guess I was wrong for insinuating that Guelph was using Nationals as an opportunity to target the top high schoolers from around the country. Their reputation of great coaching and success is enough to entice many of the top high school talents in Southern Ontario into joining the team. When you have such a large population to draw from, and good coaching, you can build a pretty strong team. I think that Guelph has done a great job hosting Nationals the past two (soon to be three) years but it's time to let somebody else have a turn.... preferably West of Ontario.

[fastrunner155]

Yes, talented runners do stay in Canada and do run well but a lot of athletes go the U.S. on scholarship because they can't afford to pay for an education in Canada. I'm not sure about the others but Tamara Jewett qualified for academic grants/scholarships.

[journeyman]

Nov 20, 2009 16:04:47 GMT -5 pmac said:

Nov 20, 2009 15:15:38 GMT -5 journeyman said:

Not to nitpick, but in the case of Webb, there is in fact only one coach to credit- Ron Warhurst coached him only for one year, and Webb ran slower for Michigan than he did in his senior year of high school. Save that one year with Warhurst and Webb's (former) coach, Scott Raczko, has remained the same through every milestone he reached, be it his 3:53 mile in highschool or his 3:46 American record.

Wasn't there a third coach in there? Did he not leave Raczko last year or two years ago?

Also, to nitpick myself: Jewett is UofT/UTTC while the others mentoined were Guelph/Speed River. (I'm sure someone would have noticed that eventually) But the point remains, it's probably more important who the coach is, than whether he or she is club or university coach.

[HHH]

Nov 20, 2009 12:05:48 GMT -5 Rory said:

Nov 20, 2009 11:08:45 GMT -5 lambert said:

Edmonton made a bid for the 2009 and 2010 national cross country championships, but it was rejected. As I recall, the main reason cited against the bid was weather concerns. Guelph was given the championships for an additional two years instead.

The severe weather excuse was total BS. Guelph has had snow every year they've hosted Nats. last year Edmonton had no snow and this year its looking like again there will be grass until mid december...

www.edmontontrafficcam.com/cams.php


Its too bad because HHH had a terrific course lined up.

Rory: I am holding you fully responsible for the mess that is outside this morning. Good job.

Seriously though, I shouldn't take credit where it's not due: I had nothing to do with the Thunder bid though would have loved to have been involved if they were awarded out this way.

[HHH]

Nov 20, 2009 10:55:30 GMT -5 Steve Weiler said:

Nov 20, 2009 10:06:10 GMT -5 blahblahblah said:

It used to be that Nationals would come out West every third year, which seems fair to me unless runners living in Ontario would be willing to subsidize the travel costs of runners from the West by paying high meet entry fees. If juniors believe that Nationals are going to be hosted by Guelph in perpetuity, it will be a strong financial incentive for them to go to school in Southern Ontario, no?

Ontario clubs do pay subsidies when Canadian Championships are hosted in Ontario and our travel costs are reduced.

Hi Steve: How does this work?

Regardless, nationals should move out of Ont/Que every 3rd year. This is only fair to the other 1/3 of the population and also part of being in a country called Canada, not central Canada.