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Post by Steve Weiler on Nov 17, 2009 12:46:17 GMT -5
Steve, how much of the improvement at U of G would you attribute to DST, say as a %age?  |
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Post by journeyman on Nov 17, 2009 12:55:56 GMT -5
A time is coming soon, if it hasn't already arrived, when the only serious Canadian choice for top Ontario kids (and, who knows, maybe kids from all over Canada) will be the U of G. While I don't dispute that DST's program is the best by a very long shot, I don't think that alone makes a school the "only serious Canadian choice." There are plenty of factors that go into choosing a university, only one of which is the strength of the running program. There are many other schools that have dominant academic programs, as well as geographic and economic advantages, that would lead someone to go elsewhere. You are right about one other thing, and that is that it is up to the coaches to match up in the training department. It is really a great thing to have such a strong school (two actually--if not for Guelph, we would be talking about Windsor, and Dennis Fairall) in Canada. Seeing it up close avoids some of the myths about burnout etc that are attached to high level NCAA programs. |
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Post by oldster on Nov 17, 2009 14:09:39 GMT -5
Steve, how much of the improvement at U of G would you attribute to DST, say as a %age? Didn't take you long to try to nail me on this one, Steve! When we're talking about the contribution of a coach to building an entire program, which includes far more than we would typically associate with "coaching" per se, then the contribution can be great. The thing about DST, as I've said before, is that he combines great knowledge and intuition about training process itself with the other abilities require to build a program. There are people who could step into an existing program and do well with it based simply on expertise, but it takes a whole different person to do what DST has done. And, at this point, he remains one of a kind. |
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Post by SI on Nov 17, 2009 17:17:44 GMT -5
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Post by coolrunning on Nov 17, 2009 17:18:28 GMT -5
Along the same lines, I think Rory Sneyd has done some great things with the McMaster program over the past 4 years. He has improved the program with great success.
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Post by oldster on Nov 17, 2009 19:18:21 GMT -5
Point taken, SI. I was just going for dramatic effect! And definitely props to Rory Sneyd (also to the great Paula Schnurr, from what I understand). He seems to have some of the DST passion and vision. |
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Post by ronb on Nov 17, 2009 21:31:49 GMT -5
DST is a good buddy of mine, and is doing an awesome job in Guelph. I love you, man!!!
However, to pretend this is a brand new concept, and has never been done before in Canada, is revisionist history.
In the early to mid 1980's, we had it going on in B.C., with the SFU/Valley Royals, and the UBC/Kajaks, and the UVIC/Vikes. And then with great support from BCA and AC and the 3 Universities, we were able to support Ken Elmer to come on board and develop huge road races (Sun Run / TC 10K.) that were able to provide funding for the Jerome and the Vic.Track Classic, and many other National/International track events in B.C. DST is leading the charge in Canada at the moment, and we need more of that good stuff...
There is no reason for our top H.S. athletes to feel compelled to go South - we can do it here...
Our top University coaches shouldn't be paid a full salary, if their season is over at CIS in March, and doesn't start again until September - that is part of our problem.
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madm
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Post by madm on Nov 18, 2009 8:38:58 GMT -5
yeah but top university coaches like dst probably arent just working at the university level from september to march. i would think things like working on recruiting is a year round process, and planning cross and track meet schedules (which take place in the summer correct me if i'm wrong) take place outside the september to march window. these two are just to name a few that are part of the job that dont necessarily happen just from september to march. cis coaching should be a year round operation, so why not pay these folks full salaries?
oh btw, how did this cis compare to other cis championships that have been held at fort henry in similar conditions as far as depth and times are concerned?
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Post by coldneck on Nov 18, 2009 10:53:34 GMT -5
oh btw, how did this cis compare to other cis championships that have been held at fort henry in similar conditions as far as depth and times are concerned? First off, the top guys killed it on Saturday and I think the level of XC in the CIS is better than it has been anytime in the past 10-15 years. I would suspect that the girls are also running at a higher level. As far as the conditions on Saturday... A calm day like that only comes around once every 100 years at Fort Henry. |
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Post by oldster on Nov 18, 2009 11:10:09 GMT -5
DST is a good buddy of mine, and is doing an awesome job in Guelph. I love you, man!!! However, to pretend this is a brand new concept, and has never been done before in Canada, is revisionist history. In the early to mid 1980's, we had it going on in B.C., with the SFU/Valley Royals, and the UBC/Kajaks, and the UVIC/Vikes. And then with great support from BCA and AC and the 3 Universities, we were able to support Ken Elmer to come on board and develop huge road races (Sun Run / TC 10K.) that were able to provide funding for the Jerome and the Vic.Track Classic, and many other National/International track events in B.C. DST is leading the charge in Canada at the moment, and we need more of that good stuff... There is no reason for our top H.S. athletes to feel compelled to go South - we can do it here... Our top University coaches shouldn't be paid a full salary, if their season is over at CIS in March, and doesn't start again until September - that is part of our problem. I don't mind giving you the opportunity to remind us of the the glory days in B.C., Ron, but I actually didn't say that what DST has done in Guelph is necessarily new in Canada. However, it's been so long now since anyone else has been able to do it that it might as well be new. And, as much as I'd like to believe that it's not necessary for our promising kids to go south after HS, the reality at the moment suggest that it probably is, and will be for a while longer. In addition to the relative lack of depth, the absence of a spring track program in this country alone continues to be a huge problem for our serious track-oriented distance athletes. DST and Guelph (again) are attempting to deal with this; but, assuming not everyone can go to the U of G, this will continue to be a factor in attracting Canadian talent. And, Coldneck, no doubt that was a freaky-nice day up on the hill last week-- a combination of course and weather conditions likely never to recur. That said, I agree that the boys-- and particularly the top six-- were really rolling out there. Actually gave me some flashbacks to some of the high-speed front packs of the 80s. Great to see! |
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Post by nscoach67 on Nov 18, 2009 11:35:52 GMT -5
There is no reason for our top H.S. athletes to feel compelled to go South - we can do it here... Our top University coaches shouldn't be paid a full salary, if their season is over at CIS in March, and doesn't start again until September - that is part of our problem. The charge to the bright lights of the states probably isn't going anywhere. It's an incredibly attractive idea for young student athletes. We've all heard and seen the dropout % being high through every aspect of schooling, from Elementary, then the drop in junior high, then senior, then university then finally you're out and that's not good. I think the challenge to all of us to talk up how great this past CIS meet was. The video is a great selling point, literally and figuratively. If Chris M and DST have raised the bar from the media and marketing side of things, then that's great, because the airwaves are cheap and certainly how the US schools go about using them to recruit. Let's get everyone here out with a video camera and still pictures, and get their respective websites under control and up to date, and keep the content flowing regularly, which is what Speed River does. |
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Post by Steve Weiler on Nov 18, 2009 11:53:11 GMT -5
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Post by ahutch on Nov 18, 2009 17:26:04 GMT -5
oh btw, how did this cis compare to other cis championships that have been held at fort henry in similar conditions as far as depth and times are concerned? Some analysis stolen from an off-list e-mail thread, comparing the 1999 and 2009 races: "Weatherwise the conditions at Kingston Airport (other end of the city) had sustained wind at 25km/hr in 1999, and a temperature of just less than 8C. It was rainy then cold leading into the race. I do recall that the ground was fairly dry (not as dry as this year) when the race went off. This year it was clear in the days leading to the champs (and warmer) with a wind speed of 11km/hr and a temperature above 13C." "Contrary to most people's initial reactions, they were closer than one would expect: 1999 2009 1st - 30:47 to 30:34 6th - 31:51 to 31:01 10th - 32:09 to 31:42 20th - 32:31 to 32:24 30th - 32:48 to 32:46 40th - 33:13 to 33:10 50th - 33:33 to 33:25 60th - 33:45 to 33:41 70th - 33:56 to 33:50 80th - 34:08 to 34:04 90th - 34:17 to 34:30 100th - 34:31 to 34:52 110th - 34:50 to 35:19 Total finishers: 130 to 130 So other than some improvement at top end depth (basically shifting the entire Guelph team up 20 places and about 90 +/- seconds), the results are very evenly tracked, with a few more competitive runners at the back of the 1999 version." |
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Post by coldneck on Nov 18, 2009 17:32:40 GMT -5
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Post by ahutch on Nov 18, 2009 19:44:16 GMT -5
Yeah, the depth in 1999 was probably affected by the number of runners who baled out partway.
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Post by ronb on Nov 18, 2009 20:49:43 GMT -5
I am somewhat surprised at the perspective of some of our best coaches, when discussing the whole "to go south or don't" issue...
Clearly, it can be done in Canada. There is virtually no CIS school that hasn't been home to a National/International level distance runner. And, if it could happen then, why not now?
Because too many are accepting the crapola excuses about needing to go South. It's absolute B.S. - of course some will always go, but why? And could they perhaps run better, if they stayed?
There is no shortage of great competition in Canada. And if you choose the right place to go to school, your personal competititon plan will be much more important that how the team does at whatever meet. In fact, I would argue that the whole team thing is a negative for those who go south, and not a positive... Longer term planning/thinking should take precedence over "how can we qualify for NCAA this term".
If the CIS competition ends in mid-March, you and your coach can get to the competitions that are best for you, at your current stage of development, as opposed to spending April and May and early June, running "for the team".
Out west, all the big Meets at Stanford, Mt.Sac, Oregon, West Coast Series in Canada, are totally independent of University affiliation. So, from late March through mid-June, you can run many excellent races, and it can fit your individual program. I shudder to think that Oldster thinks that the shortage of Spring Meets is a reason to go south to school... Absolute nonsense, my friend.... How did all those post-collegiate runners fare so well out here? And how are those post-collegiate runners thriving in Guelph?
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Post by tywebb on Nov 18, 2009 21:00:40 GMT -5
I agree, the CIS is looking great. There is little doubt in my mind that '09 was stronger than a decade ago '99.
Does anyone else think that the course might vary slightly from year to year? I talked with a member of the Queen's team who acknowledged this might be the the case - just another factor to consider when comparing the '99 and '09.
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sands
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Post by sands on Nov 18, 2009 21:21:56 GMT -5
There is no doubt that the course at Fort Henry varies from year to year. The way the grass gets cut by the groundskeeper at RMC determines how long the course is and where the turns are. Over my years at Queen's there was a definite variation in how fast the course was, and it wasn't based solely on the weather / course conditions. The guys and girls were rollin' last weekend. 30:34 on that course is just ridiculous.
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madm
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Post by madm on Nov 18, 2009 21:35:36 GMT -5
the course at fort henry was different than the queens meet in october. the cis start line was actually moved back from queens, making the course longer than a month ago.
cheers ahutch for that little analysis
ronb, you are right there isnt a lack of competition in canada, however there's better competition in the states.
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madm
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Post by madm on Nov 18, 2009 21:39:38 GMT -5
oh yeah ronb, you're right about the team thing in the states. and i think it has alot to do with what we were talking about before about the salaries of the cis coaches. the top ncaa coaches are making pretty darn close to 100k a year and probably over in some cases, so there's a big demand on them to perform...yeah it screws up long term development but that's their job, get the lads ready for 12 weeks from now, not 6months from now. not disagree-ing with you just telling it like it is in my opinion
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pmac
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Post by pmac on Nov 18, 2009 21:56:43 GMT -5
I am somewhat surprised at the perspective of some of our best coaches, when discussing the whole "to go south or don't" issue... Clearly, it can be done in Canada. There is virtually no CIS school that hasn't been home to a National/International level distance runner. And, if it could happen then, why not now? Because too many are accepting the crapola excuses about needing to go South. It's absolute B.S. - of course some will always go, but why? And could they perhaps run better, if they stayed? Ron, until CIS schools offer the full rides that those schools in the States do (as well as everything that comes with it i.e shoes, full medical, gear, paid meals, all on top of paid tuition and books) most of the good guys will continue to flock south. Is it the best for their development? I believe that one is left up to debate based on the individual. There's no doubt guys like Bairu and Sully flourished in the NCAA, while guys like Mike Woods (even under the same coach as Sully) had quite a rough time down south. But the bottom line here (as always) is money, and for many kids the prospect of a free education is too good to pass up. I have no doubt someone will bring up academic scholarships, or those athletic scholarships that require an average of 80% that have been recently introduced in the OUA (forgive me negligence regarding the other conferences within the CIS). But those are not guaranteed by any means- one rough term and many academic scholarships are lost based on their criteria, and achieving 80% is quite a feat in itself for many university programs, never mind competing on a varsity team over and above that. Since I expect a response along these lines, I will address it now: "But wait, athletic scholarships can be revoked as well, and being on scholarship means there is pressure put on athletes to perform up to a certain standard during the 3 seasons, hindering their overall development." Yes, athletic scholarships can be revoked, but I would argue the likelihood of such an occurrence is low given the amount of money given out every year. And sure there is a standard to be met basically 3 times a year (xc, indoor, outdoor), but what athlete enters university worried about what they'll be doing 4-5 years down the line? They expect to race at a certain standard year after year- their own- and that is often more loftier than any coach will set. And it's not as if all coaches in the States are ordering their runners to made immediate impacts on the team scores at conference and what not. Look how many Canadian guys are red-shirting their first year- they are being allowed to make the transition without the expectation they will perform right away....they are even being allowed to develop some might say. Money talks. Offer athletic scholarships and kids will stick around. |
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Post by Steve Weiler on Nov 18, 2009 22:17:18 GMT -5
CIS is looking great, and the level of competition and depth in Ontario and BC is solid. It CAN be done in Canada, and one of the things we've been talking about here in London this year is coordinating better on meets. There is so much depth between Windsor-Toronto that if we get all the top athletes out at a few meets before people head off to Europe, we can produce some very deep fields. I hope that in 2010 coaches and meet directors are willing to work together to make this happen. The later date of Nationals allows the series out west and the twilight meets in ON to set up some solid HP fields.
Any coaches, athletes, and meet directors feel free to communicate with myself as to how we can set up a few deep distance races in 2010. We're already looking towards another early May 10,000m (inc. ON Champs), late May 5,000m, and June 1,500m in London. I'd love to coordinate (with TO, Windor, Guelph, and Hamilton people?) on a High Performance Series. We should be able to set this up so people could also head out to the West coast series as well.
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Post by ronb on Nov 18, 2009 22:17:21 GMT -5
Good points, and good discussion... I will offer some counter-points, all in the fullness of time  |
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Post by ronb on Nov 18, 2009 22:26:49 GMT -5
You're doing some great work there, Steve...
Here are a few thoughts on competitions.
It is easily possible to get some great racing, with a low org./low cost/high performance
perspective.
Just distance events, no starting blocks, wind gauges, and all that crap.
Starter, some judges and timers, and a very easy entry system. We used to use entry cards, athletes came in and signed up to 1 hour before start - they filled out their own entry cards, and then we shuffled the deck and put them into heats/sections. This included a lot of Athletics West runners, from both coasts of the USA, as well as our top Canadian runners.
Seriously, 17 guys under 14 minutes for the 5K., and no entries until 1 hour ahead of time...
A few bucks for some good rabbits, wait until later so the heat and wind are gone, and run your asses off.... Not too complicated...
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Post by lambert on Nov 18, 2009 22:44:06 GMT -5
Money talks. Offer athletic scholarships and kids will stick around. That is an interesting observation. But I don't think you can discount the 'prestige' of being able to say you go to a school in the states. I know of a handful of cross county runners who have made money going to the U of A in the last few years. The top track and field athlete gets $2,500 per year for all four years, and anyone who makes a CIS team will get at least $1800 per year in addition. If you have a decent grade point average, you can get a further $2000 per year. There are a number of discretionary scholarships for cross country athletes of $1000. On top of that there are a ridiculous number of academic scholarships, which aren't limited to the cost of tuition. If money alone brought people into the program, then the U of A would have at least one or two recruits from outside of Edmonton. On this year's CIS team only Max Leboeuf grew up outside of Edmonton, and he came to Edmonton for school (running isn't his main sport). Of course, I guess it's hard to convince people to live in Edmonton in the winter... |
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Post by oldster on Nov 18, 2009 22:57:34 GMT -5
I am somewhat surprised at the perspective of some of our best coaches, when discussing the whole "to go south or don't" issue... Clearly, it can be done in Canada. There is virtually no CIS school that hasn't been home to a National/International level distance runner. And, if it could happen then, why not now? Because too many are accepting the crapola excuses about needing to go South. It's absolute B.S. - of course some will always go, but why? And could they perhaps run better, if they stayed? There is no shortage of great competition in Canada. And if you choose the right place to go to school, your personal competition plan will be much more important that how the team does at whatever meet. In fact, I would argue that the whole team thing is a negative for those who go south, and not a positive... Longer term planning/thinking should take precedence over "how can we qualify for NCAA this term". If the CIS competition ends in mid-March, you and your coach can get to the competitions that are best for you, at your current stage of development, as opposed to spending April and May and early June, running "for the team". Out west, all the big Meets at Stanford, Mt.Sac, Oregon, West Coast Series in Canada, are totally independent of University affiliation. So, from late March through mid-June, you can run many excellent races, and it can fit your individual program. I shudder to think that Oldster thinks that the shortage of Spring Meets is a reason to go south to school... Absolute nonsense, my friend.... How did all those post-collegiate runners fare so well out here? And how are those post-collegiate runners thriving in Guelph? I appreciate, and share, your passion here, Ron. It certainly can be done in Canada. It will just be that much harder; and, it is unreasonable, I think, to expect talented young Canadians to risk their future on what, realistically, looks like a bit of a gamble (not to say the NCAA route is not also something of a gamble, but the various benefits alluded to by others mitigate the overall risk). I actually think our young runners think long and hard about their decision to go south or not, and who are we to second guess when the majority of the best ones decide to go south? The proof of the pudding is, as they say, in the eating. If more of our top kids are opting for the NCAA then I would have to guess that it probably remains the better option for them at this point, all things considered. No one can be expected to either stay in Canada or not based on some general argument about which choice is best; people make this decision based on an assessment of what is best for them personally, and most of our best kids are choosing to go south, regardless of what some of us might think is best for them. They way to convince more kids to stay in Canada is to actually make it on the whole, and in their own judgment, better for them to stay in Canada. We need to, in other words, build better university programs up here using the athletes available to us, just the way DST has done at Guelph. If we manage to get two or three more Guelph/Speed Rivers going in this country over the next 10 years, we'll get more kids to stay (provided we can also fill the spring track gap-- and great work, Steve W.). And re: the Fort course in K-town, it is definitely longer than it was when I first raced it back in 02, although I can't speak to 09. Also, I've been coaching primary school kids to race on this course for about 8 years now, which means walking over it, spectating on it, and timing races on it a couple of times per year, and it is definitely different in a couple of places now than a few years ago. The loop could easily be as much as 30m longer than it was then. Final example: Dylan W. did a couple of sessions on it this fall that were done at very close to the same time per lap that I was doing last fall, and there is no way I was in the same shape as he is right now. I think this year's version may have been the longest in a while, which is why those boys at CIs only broke the CR by a bit, in spite of the unprecedentedly nice conditions. I know a fast X-C race when I see it, and those guys were hoofing! |
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Post by Steve Weiler on Nov 18, 2009 22:59:36 GMT -5
That's basicly what we're trying to do in London, Ron. Just distance events, reduce the meet logistics, twilight meets under the lights for HP sections, people have been increasingly helpful in setting up rabbits though we try our best to provide from the host club LRDC, no $ just aim to run FAST. Only difference I've set is to get the entries in advance so we can set specific race start times so the athletes know exactly when they need to arrive, warm-up, etc.
I really do want to help organize HP fields for 2010 with coaches, athletes, and other meet directors as best we can. The only way that we can TRULY make this work is by working together.
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Post by ronb on Nov 18, 2009 23:03:08 GMT -5
One of the major issues would be sorting out the Grade 12's that have a good long term perspective, relative to how talented they are, and how well they should be able to do at the World level, 5 to 10 years in the future.
If it's a matter of prestige or short term success, or whatever, count them out...Have a good life, but your value system is not compatible with the big picture here....
Please don't use Sully as an example of NCAA success. Sully was 3rd in the World Junior 1500 metres, before he ever left Canada. And for Michigan to claim credit for his incredible career is nonsense....Sub 3:40, world junior bronze, at an 18 or 19 year old, in Canada..please, this is a Canadian success story,,,
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pmac
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Post by pmac on Nov 18, 2009 23:29:28 GMT -5
One of the major issues would be sorting out the Grade 12's that have a good long term perspective, relative to how talented they are, and how well they should be able to do at the World level, 5 to 10 years in the future. If it's a matter of prestige or short term success, or whatever, count them out...Have a good life, but your value system is not compatible with the big picture here.... Please don't use Sully as an example of NCAA success. Sully was 3rd in the World Junior 1500 metres, before he ever left Canada. And for Michigan to claim credit for his incredible career is nonsense....Sub 3:40, world junior bronze, at an 18 or 19 year old, in Canada..please, this is a Canadian success story,,, Sometimes it is more about providing an environment for the great ones to flourish above all else. If you're in a situation where you are paying very little to go to school, and therefore can simply focus on that and running, would that not be better for your overall development than being in a situation where you have to compromise both training and academics just to pay for tuition? Also, would you have rather that he had dominated the CIS year in and year out? How would that have made him a better competitor than what he was? Since we know he is active among these boards, I'd like to hear what he himself has to say regarding whether or not he could have achieved the same in Canada. |
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Post by SNIDER on Nov 18, 2009 23:33:31 GMT -5
Thats crazy!! Hay bails? I heard that wasn't that uncommon in cross country races back then. I've just never seen pictures of it. I think that would be a lot of fun. None of this flat golf course racing. Throw in a couple stairs and low hurdles every lap. By the way everyone in those pictures look so young (Volmer especially). |
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