"We are more of a sprinting and throwing country"

[Chris Moulton]

Congrats to Simon Bairu, I didn't want any of the threads on his tremendous accomplishment to be taken away by this remark but do feel it warrants greater discussion. I have been largely quiet on this forum on some of the changes and directions Athletics Canada has taken recently. As a fan of distance running or jumping or multi events in this country you have to be disappointed in the views of our country's head coach. Although I respect what Dylan and Anatoli have done, we have a great tradition in the distance events, not to mention jumping and multi events. How could anyone not have seen this record coming, Simon has been unbelievable for years and he did pretty well at that Cross Country meet they had a few weeks back.

www.cbc.ca/sports/amateur/story/2010/05/02/sp-bairu.html

Given that we (the sport of track and field in this country) are putting a greater importance on medals at the Olympic Games I thought I would post a list of our Olympic Medalist over the last 34 years.

2008 - Beijing, China

Priscilla Lopes-Schliep - 100m Hurdles - Bronze (12.64)

1996 – Atlanta, USA

Donovan Bailey – 100m – Gold (9.84)

Men’s 4x100m Relay - Robert Esmie, Glenroy Gilbert, Bruny Surin, Donovan Bailey, Carleton Chambers (Alt.) - Gold (37.69)

1992 – Barcelona, Spain

Mark McKoy – 110m Hurdles – Gold (13.12)

Guillaume LeBlanc – 20km Race Walk – Silver (1:22:25)

Angela Chalmers – 3000m - Bronze (8:47.22)

1988 – Seoul, Korea

David Steen – Decathlon – Bronze (8328)

1984 – Los Angeles, USA

Women’s 4x100 Relay – Angela Bailey, Marita Payne, Angella Taylor, France Gareau - Silver (42.77)

Women’s 4x400 Relay – Charmaine Crooks, Jillian Richardson, Molly Killingbeck, Marita Payne - Silver (3:21.21)

Ben Johnson – 100m – Bronze (10.22)

Men’s 4x100m Relay – Ben Johnson, Tony Sharpe, Desai Williams, Sterling Hinds - Bronze (38.70)

Lynn Williams – 3000m – Bronze (8:42.14)

1976 – Montreal, Canada

Greg Joy – High Jump – Silver (2.23m)

To be blunt for a throwing country we are not very good, hopefully given the great work Dylan, Anatoli, etc. are doing we will see some medals in the throws but I hope we see some medals in the distance and jumps and multis and sprints as well. Track in my opinion is too big a sport and we are too big and too diverse a country to become to niche specific. So congrats to Simon in addition to being the Canadian Record Holder hopefully your run will affect some changes in the higher ups views of events at which Canadian athletes can excel.

Full of list is available here www.athletics.ca/page.asp?id=189

[Chris Moulton]

Here are some comments from the other thread.

champion
Interesting article with quote from Alex Gardiner (and subsequent comment from Ron Bowker). I had no idea we are a "sprint and throwing country" either.

www.cbc.ca/sports/amateur/story/2010/05/02/sp-bairu.html

ronb
Royal Member
Thanks for linking that, champ...
I hope that anyone who cares about the past, present, and future of Canadian distance running, takes the time to head over there, and offer a comment on that thread.... I think this could be a game-changer. Thanks Simon, and thanks Mr. Gardiner for revealing the absolute and total ignorance of Athletics Canada ! Yes, I do care about this stuff...

Nathaniel A. Carter
Ron's comments are absolutely on the mark. My Public Affairs Officer would NEVER let me make a comment that indicated that I had no idea what was going on in any part of my organization.

As disappointed as I am with Gardiner's comments, it's also indicative that distance athletes are not receiving effective leadership and representaton by the event group rep. I know that a lot of people were excited when Thelma Wright was named as the Endurance National Event Group Coach. She is passionate about the sport and was thought to be a breath of fresh air that would be more than just another person kowtowing to the AthCan bureaucracy.

Since she was appointed, Canadian distance runners have seen Int'l X-Country all but scrapped at the senior level, and opportunities for up and coming athletes eliminated. Where's the advocacy!?! Where's the fight? At a minimum, the job of the Event Group Coach should be to keep the Head Coach in the loop if his situational awareness is lacking. Obviously, this isn't happening. If the endurance group won't defend it's own turf, then who at AthCan is going to represent their interests? it's pretty obvious where Gardiner's loyalties lie.

Bomba
....Mr Carter.....careful not too assume (like I've never assumed before). The one thing I would agree with you about is the bureacracy that one must deal with, but it takes a creative person to be a part of, yet still be able to get around said bureacracy. I would argue that Thelma has the ability to do both things.....

subfour
And in all of this this let's not miss that Simon's Canadian record is also the B carding standard!!!

slamer
And in all of this this let's not miss that Simon's Canadian record is also the B carding standard!!!

I think you need to be below the world record for the A standard... twice... within a month of each other.

ronb
....Mr Carter.....careful not too assume (like I've never assumed before). The one thing I would agree with you about is the bureacracy that one must deal with, but it takes a creative person to be a part of, yet still be able to get around said bureacracy. I would argue that Thelma has the ability to do both things.....


One more thing you need, bomber... Cajones - big ones...
If you really believe you are doing the right thing, or have the right plan, for the athletes and coaches in the events that you represent, then you need to be willing to take your fight to the wall, regardless of what your "boss" thinks. We have some good people, who have become much too complacent and satisfied (some would say fat and lazy) in their jobs, simply because they don't want to lose their jobs. Of course, we can understand it, but we still need to have somone who will fight for the distance runners and their coaches. We don't have that at the moment.

[subfour]

As Mr. Gardiner and his colleagues at AC move increasingly out of touch with the athletics community in Canada, his off-base comments should come as no surprise. Defining our Canadian program as being "based" on a given area is ludicrous. Dylan is an outstanding thrower and has been since he was 10 years old. He has been blessed with awesome coaching, a supportive Kamloops community and family; but he by no means makes us a "country of throwers".
A country of sprinters? Our best guy is running 10.28. Last year our best was 10.24. We had drug-enhanced sprint success in the 80's and thanks to a fortuitous conicidence of immigration, we had strong sprinters in the mid to late 90's.
Through all of this, I believe that we were CONSISTENTLY more successful as a "middle distance" nation.
But the current AC "model" (and don't worry - It can and will change on a whim) equates the succes of one athlete/coach as a "High Performance Centre" where athletes magically get 40 carding points just for showing up. Simon will get 20 points for his training environment.
In the words of ronb: "Don't get me started!"

[powerboy]

This is truly one of the stupidest comments in recent years. Unless there is a very sincere retraction Gardiner should resign.Go to any track meet-high school ,univ, open; the largest fields are the middle distance races. We are like the vast majority of countries that are finding it difficult to score against the African powers. But that doesnt change our identity. We are actually a running nation and we compete across the spectrum.

[jaycity]

May 3, 2010 13:07:19 GMT -5 powerboy said:

Go to any track meet-high school ,univ, open; the largest fields are the middle distance races.

completely true. i was in a 1500m high school race today with another 20-30 competitors and there was at max 10 people in any given field event

[hammercrazy]

i completely agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[oldster]

Great and salutary post, Moults. But understanding this comment begins with understanding the nature of the AC beast. It is a creature whose ongoing health-- which it systematically equates with that of the sport of track and field itself-- is determined by nourishment from Sport Canada, which the latter releases on the shortest term cyclical basis. As Krs regularly points out, AC exists to "put Canadians in the top 16 and 8 in the world", period. And it exists to do this because its own financial health-- which again, it equates with that of the sport in general-- depends on it. What this means is that, from AC's point of view, we are effectively a nation of (fill in the blank) athletes if (fill in the blank) athletes happen to have the best shot, at any given time, of making the top 8 or 16 in the world. This makes AC not actually "Athletics" Canada, but "Athletics-events-in-which-we-currently-have-a-shot-at-coming-top-16-or-8-in-the-world" Canada. There is just nothing in it for an organization such as this to think much about the sport in general, let alone about its long term development. And it sure as hell can't afford to give any thought to which events Canadians might like to participate in. Gardiner's statement is simply a pristine reflection of this basic reality. What's to be done about it is another question. There is a sport of track and field in this country apart from AC, but AC continues to play an important role in determining its general health, so it cannot simply be ignored or impotently railed at.

[saskatchewan]

May 3, 2010 18:08:35 GMT -5 oldster said:

Great and salutary post, Moults. But understanding this comment begins with understanding the nature of the AC beast. It is a creature whose ongoing health-- which it systematically equates with that of the sport of track and field itself-- is determined by nourishment from Sport Canada, which the latter releases on the shortest term cyclical basis. As Krs regularly points out, AC exists to "put Canadians in the top 16 and 8 in the world", period. And it exists to do this because its own financial health-- which again, it equates with that of the sport in general-- depends on it. What this means is that, from AC's point of view, we are effectively a nation of (fill in the blank) athletes if (fill in the blank) athletes happen to have the best shot, at any given time, of making the top 8 or 16 in the world. This makes AC not actually "Athletics" Canada, but "Athletics-events-in-which-we-currently-have-a-shot-at-coming-top-16-or-8-in-the-world" Canada. There is just nothing in it for an organization such as this to think much about the sport in general, let alone about its long term development. And it sure as hell can't afford to give any thought to which events Canadians might like to participate in. Gardiner's statement is simply a pristine reflection of this basic reality. What's to be done about it is another question. There is a sport of track and field in this country apart from AC, but AC continues to play an important role in determining its general health, so it cannot simply be ignored or impotently railed at.

Given the general mistrust of AC on this board I guess we can be somewhat happy that AC appears to believe it's only source of funding is Sport Canada, and therefore is effectively limited to dolling out $1500/month carding to a select few sprinters and throwers. If AC ever figures out they can approach the private sector (heaven forbid) for $ they may be able to have some significant influence (not sure if that would be good, bad or indifferent) on CDN distance running.

[ronb]

Let me try and frame this...
In and around Simon's great performance at Stanford, we have:
1) over 13,000 participants and a like number of fans/family/ spectators at the Victoria TC 10K, 8 days ago.
2) over 14,000 participants and a like number of fans/family/spectators at the Vancouver Marathon weekend, over the last day or so.
3) probably close to 60,000 participants and a like number of fans/family/spectators at the Vancouver Sun Run, coming up this weekend...
So, over a period of just over 2 weeks, we have close to 90,000 direct paid-up participants, and probably 200,000 people involved one way or another, just in 2 cities, in our 3rd largest Province, all running for longer than 1500 metres.......SINNERS !!!
And we are a nation of "sprinters and throwers" this is intolerable crap and nonsense...
For the millionth time, Athletics Canada has lost the right to govern distance running in Canada. The latest episode is just another straw on the camel's back.....It's been broken for years, and is getting worse by the day ---- until now...

[oldster]

Fair point, Sask, but it's not simply a question of the money it passes on through carding. Sport Canada funding, for which AC competes with other sport bodies for resources based on the international ranking of each federation's athletes/teams, determines the health of AC as a source of jobs as well as special project and travel money, etc. that supports the careers of administrators. As I have said many times before, AC represents a perverse reversal of the relationship between athletes and administrators in which a small number of the former (the "national team", the athletic development of which is largely provided free of charge by outside actors--parents and the school, club, and university systems) support the decently paid careers of the latter, and all for the princely sum of 18000 per year (+ a few small benefits) guaranteed for one year only.

This whole system was designed to "professionalize" admin for the benefit of athletes and the sport, but it has become something entirely other in practice: National team sport is now funded as a purely national propaganda exercise in which the main beneficiaries end up being sport admin. types and, when Canadians win, politicians (they hope). Ordinary Canadians also get to feel a few hours of national pride here than there; but, if we're not talking about hockey, national team sport is completely peripheral to the lives of most Canadians-- which is why, for what its worth, it should be realigned with the interests of athletes, who are the only ones who truly care about it, and who only want to be allowed to compete against the best in the rest of the world when they meet the minimum standards set by the relevant international bodies. Hell, they would probably even pay their own way to do so, if their interests weren't being held captive by careerists supporting a government propaganda machine (and a fairly lame one at that-- East Germany circa 1976 this ain't!).

[twofeet]

Recently posted on CBC.ca, by Paul Gains:

Athletics Canada under attack for revised carding program

www.cbc.ca/sports/amateur/story/2010/05/03/sp-athletics-canada-funding-distances.html

[ahutch]

May 3, 2010 19:56:38 GMT -5 oldster said:

National team sport is now funded as a purely national propaganda exercise in which the main beneficiaries end up being sport admin. types and, when Canadians win, politicians (they hope). Ordinary Canadians also get to feel a few hours of national pride here than there; but, if we're not talking about hockey, national team sport is completely peripheral to the lives of most Canadians-- which is why, for what its worth, it should be realigned with the interests of athletes, who are the only ones who truly care about it...

If the athletes are the only ones who truly care about it, that sounds to me like a strong argument in favour of cutting the carding program. Why should the public pay a stipend so that people can pursue a hobby of no particular general interest, any more than we should be funding our best chess players, painters, video-game wizards, bridge enthusiasts and so on?

If we reject the premise that national-team sport should be funded as a propaganda exercise, it seems to me we need an alternate framework that demonstrates the societal benefits of funding runners. The obvious one would be the health and social benefits of physical activity, with elites sitting at the top of a pyramid that encompasses a base including, as Ron says, the tens of thousands of people running road races these days. Still, I'm not sure there's a strong argument for carding as the best use of resources within that framework.

Alternately, we can accept the national-team-sport-as-propaganda premise, but reframe our goals within that framework. That means arguing that, say, watching Kevin Sullivan come fifth at the Olympics should inspire more pride than watching one of our athletes win a gold medal in trampolining (as Stephen Brunt argued in an amazing article in the Globe back in 2000). Of course, this is what most of us on these boards have been arguing all along -- that OTP seems to view all top-16s and medals as equal, despite the fact that it's patently ridiculous. But I think it's important to keep fighting this fight, because otherwise eliminating distance-running carding starts to make sense.

[oldster]

You make a strong case, hutch; in fact, I except it, and would be happy to see the demise of carding if it involved a drastically reduced professional admin and allowing the 3 best Canadians with the standard in each event to enter international meets, using a fraction of the money now spent on carding to fund travel. I truly would. I do reject the premise that national team sport should serve propaganda, and I think track, and distance running in particular, is always going to lose if we accept this premise. While brilliant, Brunt's article was a cry in the wilderness. Our track athletes are simply never going to be good enough internationally on a consistent basis to be of any real use as propaganda, no matter how sophisticated the spin on it. Propaganda is always for the lowest common denominator; it is thus about winning, and winning only. In a truly global sport like ours, a country of our size is never going to win consistently enough to make any difference where typical "national pride" is concerned.

Our athletes already get to a pretty high level before they ever get close to carding (and most very good distance runners will never see it in their careers). Knowing it was never going to be available might just make them more resourceful at exploring other means of funding. U.S. athletes, for instance, have no "carding" and they seem to be managing reasonably well these days.

[speedycreek]

You guys make some good points. So you have a good athlete like Matt Hughes.

"Congrats to Matt Hughes for his impressive double at the Big East track and field championships. He won both of his events. His 8:41 3km steeple ranks him in second in the NCAA this year and first in the east region. "

Lots of potential. How does he continue in the sport after he's finished university. Maybe we have to look at the way Simon Bairu
or Kevin Sullivan have pursued their running. The Speed River model is good. NTC 's to me aren't the best choice. If you have a good coach and a good program going why then would you go to
an NTC. I think it wouldn't hurt to have a look at the whole AC/Sport Canada system and revamp it. Seems to me the whole system is a little top heavy with bureaucrats. If you want athletes to develop they should have a chance to compete and gain experience internationally. Sullivan, Hood, Bairu, Mc Cloy and Williams are good examples of how we can do internationally.
RonB has made some good points. You also have to ask if the money funded to AC is spent wisely?

Cheers

[trackspike]

So Scott Mac doesn't see the new carding criteria as "tougher", only more "realistic in terms of what it takes to do well internationally." Nothing has changed in terms of "what it takes to do well internationally"; what HAS changed is the availability of support from AC.
One thing that the new carding criteria DOES guarantee and support is the jobs of the staff at the various "Centres". I count 6 identified "Centres" and a total of three 2012-identified athletes based out of these Centres: Gary, Dylan, and Jessica. Yet, athletes need to be in these Centres to earn 40 carding points. I don't see the correlation.

[parrin35]

True, we are

[Nathaniel A. Carter]

Maybe I've got my tinfoil hat on a little tight, but I see AC's insistance on NTCs as another means of controlling not only the athletes coming up through the national team system, but the coaches as well. Question the bureaucrat gods in Ottawa, and your NTC will cease to be, pretty much ending any hope of a coach's aspirations of a national team post and making life miserable for your elite athletes. It will also serve to silence personal coaches who actually think outside the AC box.

On the sport as propaganda issue, I have no trouble with using sport in this way; however, if that is the goal - then bloody well market it! The way things are going, you will have a 2012 Olympic track team with 6 coaches, 4 therapists, 10 officials and 10 athletes. It's pretty tough to market the greatness of Canada when we're not there to show it off. You want propaganda? Send a team of 50 (EVERYBODY within the IAAF qualifying guidelines, not AC's ridiculous A+, A+++, A who the fark knows system) and make sure the Olympic broadcaster (I don't care if it's CTV or CBC) shows them all!

[starbucks]

I think it is very sad to read about this new strategy by AC to put Canadian standards so far above the rest of the world, but what is most disappointing is to read quotes from Scott Mac approving this new system. How about we look at who's running the show here and not about taking more away from athletes. Mr Goulet and company should be revised in my opinion and a new crop of coaches and administration be brought in to help work with athletes in achieving international goals. These guys are sitting in too much of a comfort zone.

Centres like Guelph who are producing amazing performances over the past number of years are going to be hit the hardest. If we only had a guy in AC with half the initiative as Dave Thomas we would be so much further ahead.

[Nathaniel A. Carter]

Will athletes get ANY representation on the carding issue? I highly doubt it. Kevin Sullivan, as good a rep as he may otherwise be, is simply not going to bite the hand that partially feeds him. This isn't to slag Kevin, as ANY of us in the same situation would be reluctant to represent a point of view that may wind up being professionally detrimental in the long run.

Perhaps it is time to consider dumping the carding program. Considering the hassle required to obtain carding, that energy could be better used hustling support among local businesses. Teach our athletes how to cater to potential sponsors, and the rewards may certainly be better than $18,000/yr. Speed River as a club has certainly shown what can be done.

[oldster]

May 4, 2010 9:59:20 GMT -5 Nathaniel A. Carter said:

On the sport as propaganda issue, I have no trouble with using sport in this way; however, if that is the goal - then bloody well market it! The way things are going, you will have a 2012 Olympic track team with 6 coaches, 4 therapists, 10 officials and 10 athletes. It's pretty tough to market the greatness of Canada when we're not there to show it off. You want propaganda? Send a team of 50 (EVERYBODY within the IAAF qualifying guidelines, not AC's ridiculous A+, A+++, A who the fark knows system) and make sure the Olympic broadcaster (I don't care if it's CTV or CBC) shows them all!

Aye, but there's the rub: Effective propaganda is not just about showing in up numbers; in fact, a large team that doesn't win much actually undermines the whole enterprise, by making athletes the butt of jokes about "being happy to be there and run a P.B." The whole approach is actually less about making sure athletes with a shot at top 8/16 go than it is about keeping "inferior" athletes out, and from "embarrassing Canada". The truth may be that we are not a great track nation in the global scheme of things (and for all sorts of remediable reasons), but for god's sake we can't let this truth be put on display. Better to send a small team that has a better shot at putting one or two at or near the top, and let those who don't disappear quietly into the woodwork, than to suffer a stream of "Canadian finishes 36th" reportage. THIS is logic of sport as propaganda, and for those who love this sport, it is a mug's game. To use Canadian track and field as the kind of propaganda that is also good for the sport, the government would need to make a major investment in promoting it on a developmental level, which it seems less likely to do now than ever. The new approach, as Ronb has so eloquently put it, is to look for the line of least resistance in staking out sports, and events within sports, that are relatively easy to look good in (and then, presumably, to declare ourselves a "nation of" practitioners of that sport or event).

[krs1]

And what is that AC is feeding me? Are they feeding Athlete Rep and Speed River athlete Hilary Stellingwerff the same thing? Please, elighten us all on what either one of us gained in all of this. At least put some substance to your ignorant comments.

May 4, 2010 14:10:22 GMT -5 Nathaniel A. Carter said:

Will athletes get ANY representation on the carding issue? I highly doubt it. Kevin Sullivan, as good a rep as he may otherwise be, is simply not going to bite the hand that partially feeds him. This isn't to slag Kevin, as ANY of us in the same situation would be reluctant to represent a point of view that may wind up being professionally detrimental in the long run.

Perhaps it is time to consider dumping the carding program. Considering the hassle required to obtain carding, that energy could be better used hustling support among local businesses. Teach our athletes how to cater to potential sponsors, and the rewards may certainly be better than $18,000/yr. Speed River as a club has certainly shown what can be done.

[ronb]

I am not trying to be overly dramatic about this, honestly...
But we need to fight against the "path of least resistance" mentality in our National Sport System, and as reflected in AC's policies...
Our ancestors would be rolling over in their graves --- especially those who gave their lives in the Wars, so Canada could be what it is today, the best place in the World to live...
Vimy Ridge? Hello!!! In a lot of great battles for freedom in WW1 and WW2, the Canadians were given the task of going in first --- because, no matter what the odds, they gave it their all, which often meant giving their life. And now, we are a nation of RETREATERS - shame !

[pmac]

May 4, 2010 20:10:03 GMT -5 ronb said:

I am not trying to be overly dramatic about this, honestly...
But we need to fight against the "path of least resistance" mentality in our National Sport System, and as reflected in AC's policies...
Our ancestors would be rolling over in their graves --- especially those who gave their lives in the Wars, so Canada could be what it is today, the best place in the World to live...
Vimy Ridge? Hello!!! In a lot of great battles for freedom in WW1 and WW2, the Canadians were given the task of going in first --- because, no matter what the odds, they gave it their all, which often meant giving their life. And now, we are a nation of RETREATERS - shame !

So what have we got...a comparison of running to the efforts in two World Wars, and a blanket statement calling us a nation of retreaters because of what our Athletics governing body says and does.

Nice.

[ahutch]

"I think it is very sad to read about this new strategy by AC to put Canadian standards so far above the rest of the world..."

I don't quite get how high standards are the issue here. There's a set number of cards allocated by Sports Canada. AC's criteria determine who gets those cards, but they don't create more or less cards. So the "hard" or "easy" standards aren't limiting the numbers of cards -- AC will allocate every card it has available!

Another question is whether some event groups are being favoured over others -- but the formulas used to generate the standards were identical in every event. Training centres, on the other hand, have a disproportionate role in the new criteria. For the record, there is a long-distance coach (Fougner) affiliated with the middle-distance NTC in Victoria. So distance runners do have the option of relocating to Victoria if they want the NTC carding points.

Of course, I think it's absolutely ridiculous that AC is trying to legislate where people train -- penalizing Bairu for being in Portland instead of Victoria, not recognizing Speed River, and so on. But that's an injustice being foist on ALL Canadian track and field athletes, not just distance runners.

[ronb]

May 4, 2010 20:29:34 GMT -5 pmac said:

May 4, 2010 20:10:03 GMT -5 ronb said:

I am not trying to be overly dramatic about this, honestly...
But we need to fight against the "path of least resistance" mentality in our National Sport System, and as reflected in AC's policies...
Our ancestors would be rolling over in their graves --- especially those who gave their lives in the Wars, so Canada could be what it is today, the best place in the World to live...
Vimy Ridge? Hello!!! In a lot of great battles for freedom in WW1 and WW2, the Canadians were given the task of going in first --- because, no matter what the odds, they gave it their all, which often meant giving their life. And now, we are a nation of RETREATERS - shame !

So what have we got...a comparison of running to the efforts in two World Wars, and a blanket statement calling us a nation of retreaters because of what our Athletics governing body says and does.

Nice.

Sorry if you missed my point, pmac...obviously bad communication skills by myself, or
The simple fact is that our National Sport Policy is currently based on finding the weakest possible International competition, and exploiting that to the max., and thus Owning the Podium...
Do you get that??? It is abundantly obvious, for those who dare to see... Am I speaking slowly enough for you ?

[lacquement]

Another CBC article on the topic: www.cbc.ca/sports/amateur/story/2010/05/03/sp-athletics-canada-funding-distances.html

Quotes:
'but now high-school athletes may earn a developmental card worth $900 a month'

and:

"In this initial wave of carding I think we are going to lose some athletes in that age group coming out of university," said Kevin Sullivan, Canadian 1,500-meter record holder and a three-time Olympian. "The idea is to capture athletes who are on the pathway to the top 8, top 16 positions. "




While on the topic of funding, corporate sponsorship, etc, here's something to think about. When someone comes to tnfnorth and asks about participation and spectator numbers, do everything you can to help them out. You never know when they might be able to get those numbers in front of someone with a multimillion dollar marketing budget. There ARE people who come to this board that might be able to help the sport financially, if you'll help them do so.

[saskatchewan]

May 4, 2010 22:16:48 GMT -5 ronb said:

May 4, 2010 20:29:34 GMT -5 pmac said:

So what have we got...a comparison of running to the efforts in two World Wars, and a blanket statement calling us a nation of retreaters because of what our Athletics governing body says and does.

Nice.

Sorry if you missed my point, pmac...obviously bad communication skills by myself, or
The simple fact is that our National Sport Policy is currently based on finding the weakest possible International competition, and exploiting that to the max., and thus Owning the Podium...
Do you get that??? It is abundantly obvious, for those who dare to see... Am I speaking slowly enough for you ?

Okay Ron, ease up on the sarcasm. I happen to agree with pmac on this. You are letting your emotions get the better of you. Comparisions of athletics with giving ones life in battle are way over the top. I think we all understand your are feed up with AC, but your approach is not going to bring results. Whether you like it or not you need to work with AC at the end of the day, so don't go out in the press bashing the CEO for some ill advised comments.

As ahutch points out, AC is simply allocating the carding funds Sport Canada gives. Now if AC was actually raising its own money and still keeping its carding standards, i might be more inclined to agree that the funding needs to be more widely disbursed.

Who hasn't worked at an organization where the head of the organization misspoke from time to time? Lets get over it and realize that AC has a limited budget and is likely doing the best it can under Sport Canada's guidelines. Is AC perfect; absolutely not. But neither are pretty much any other organization out there. That's reality.

Simon has shown the way to success. Concentrate on getting good (right coach, training partners, environment, sponsor and agent) and the money will eventually find you (not that i think Simon is getting rich yet). Let's get on to organizing an independent funding alternative to AC and ensure that athletes reach a level where they don't require AC carding and where they can make IAAF A entry standards.

[ronb]

I agree 100 % with your last paragraph, Saskatchewan.
As I myself pointed out, I was overstating for dramatic effect, in order to drive home the following point (again). Canadians have long been known for and been justifiably proud of taking on the toughest challenges, unflinchingly, and never backing down. And I really believe that the OTP initiative, if taken to the extreme, is exactly the opposite of that approach. It's find the weakest opponents, choose the easiest battles, and then go and dominate the opposition, and then we OWN THE PODIUM. And sports such as distance running, where OWNING THE PODIUM will be extremely difficult, well, we just won't support those sports anymore. In fact, we will even state that (without the prelude), in our High Performance Plan.
So, where do we start in terms of organizing an independent funding alternative to AC, and how do we start an agreement on goals, objectives, priorities, and startup plans. Who wants to do some work on a "vision statement"?

[gtown]

May 5, 2010 10:40:49 GMT -5 ronb said:

So, where do we start in terms of organizing an independent funding alternative to AC, and how do we start an agreement on goals, objectives, priorities, and startup plans. Who wants to do some work on a "vision statement"?

Ron, I think this is a fantastic idea. Some sort of self-sustaining funding co-operative amongst long distance oriented clubs, coaches, and athletes. I am very interested in helping to draft an organizational vision statement, objectives, priorities, plans, etc. To get the ball rolling and all.

[saskatchewan]

May 5, 2010 10:40:49 GMT -5 ronb said:

I agree 100 % with your last paragraph, Saskatchewan.
As I myself pointed out, I was overstating for dramatic effect, in order to drive home the following point (again). Canadians have long been known for and been justifiably proud of taking on the toughest challenges, unflinchingly, and never backing down. And I really believe that the OTP initiative, if taken to the extreme, is exactly the opposite of that approach. It's find the weakest opponents, choose the easiest battles, and then go and dominate the opposition, and then we OWN THE PODIUM. And sports such as distance running, where OWNING THE PODIUM will be extremely difficult, well, we just won't support those sports anymore. In fact, we will even state that (without the prelude), in our High Performance Plan.
So, where do we start in terms of organizing an independent funding alternative to AC, and how do we start an agreement on goals, objectives, priorities, and startup plans. Who wants to do some work on a "vision statement"?

Ron, I think you've likely done a lot of good work already on policy statement stuff. I'm a finance guy, not a policy guy, so i'll leave it to others to come up with the wording, etc.

What i will put forward is that in order to be successful any new entity/movement, etc should:

1. Be athlete focused.
2. Work with AC (not against it). This doesn't mean giving in to AC, but it can't be seen as attempting to undercut AC as this will definitely turn potential sponsors off.
3. Leverage learnings from existing training groups/philosophies used in other training centres. For example, NIKE has three different oregon training groups with slightly different styles to accomodate different athletes (Salazars group, Jerry's group, Mark Rowlands group).
4. Have lots of patience. Acknowledge that good things don't happen overnight and that there will likely be lots of ups and downs along the way. Rather like long distance training itself

So that's my $0.02 at the moment.