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Post by SI on Apr 25, 2010 16:02:33 GMT -5
SI - Those race results look pretty crazy. Was it a certified course??? Yes. You couldn't get much flatter though. Almost too flat.The number of guys going through the first mile at sub 4:45 was sick. Out 5km and turn around and come back the other side of the road. |
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Post by francisccm on Apr 25, 2010 16:31:16 GMT -5
SI : I think I will just accept that we differ completely on this, whatever.
In the case of this race, I think no elites would be coming out if the race only had 1000 people
because the prizes, accommodation and travel support would be almost non existent.
This is the same with most races nowadays. I am not comparing to the past here.
Only talking about crowds and their value.
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Post by SI on Apr 25, 2010 16:34:44 GMT -5
Also since crowds are important to this race and many others, you are therefore not agreeing with their principle. ...and there is no question crowds are important for these "events" often to the detriment of the very sport that they are ostensibly supposed to be supporting. Believe me, I know. We just had our annual successful "event" here. I gave up a long time ago trying to make it an elite event that catered to the top level runner. They have no interest in them. "They bring no pledges." Some even want to be "comped". The horror. At least they let me do this: www.brantfordclassic.ca/content/race-recordsI tried a long time ago to get the top guys paid but they weren't having it. |
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Post by saskatchewan on Apr 25, 2010 16:35:17 GMT -5
Yeah depth in Canadian distance running talent isnt what it used to be.. Thats because elite running isn't as popular these days or lucrative for most westerners... That is the only point your proving. Dont bash the race because of it. I think getting more people out and getting fit is an achievement and helps with the ability to try and put something back into the elite sport as they are doing. The more non - elites there are running the more the elite community benefits. Otherwise distance running would be a lost cause. I'm not sure that one can make the case that increased participation will necessarily benefit the competitive side of the sport. Greater participation 'may' benefit it (if only by identifying new talent) but simply mass participation will not necessarily result a more successful competitive side of the sport. For example, here is SK road race participation is way, way up, but the competitive side (depth, prize money, etc) is way, way down. So increased participation doesn't necessarily lead to better opportunities for the competitive side (though it could). In the case of the NY marathon, it is likely more a case that the race director (Mary something or other, i forget) has a real passion for the competitive side of the sport so really pushes for profits from the NY races to be put back into the competitive sport in general (for example, they paid for rabbits for the California track meets, etc which have nothing directly to do with the NY race). A different NY race director could likely have an equally successful NY marathon and put substanitially less $ and support back into the competitive sport. Just my observations. Feel free to disagree. |
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Post by SI on Apr 25, 2010 16:56:19 GMT -5
Only talking about crowds and their value. It's a good thing they have value because, in this case, at least, we would be in big trouble. Since 2001, the race has doubled in size and the prize money offered has gone up over 4 fold. The competitive level of the race as defined by the ARRS has declined from 457 to 149(181 to 139 for the women). Payback to the sport must REALLY be long term. |
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Post by maser on Apr 25, 2010 17:00:09 GMT -5
Interesting seeing some of those results from back then. SI I raced a lot of those guys over xc back in the day. There certainly were very competitive fields and some fast times. I think with races like the TC 10k the participation and the support for the race are great. It's a start. There were some pretty deep field's for sure in the early 80's but that was then and this is now. Where do you dig up these old results from SI. Cheers K |
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Post by ronb on Apr 25, 2010 17:02:05 GMT -5
For those who are saying there is no direct and obvious 1 to 1 correlation between having large numbers show up for "recreational/fitness/community" runs, and the quality of the elite runners, I agree with that point. There is an absolute need to create and nourish some linkage or synergy between the quantities and the qualities of our runners. We have worked very hard at that in Victoria, for a long, long time... By saying we have worked hard at that, that is nothing to do with the winning times in the TC 10K. It has a lot to do with ongoing support for our elites and emerging elites, paid for by the runners/joggers/walkers who took part today, many of whom will also be parents, teachers, spectators, and others who will support fitness activities. What is so hard to understand about that principle? I would also suggest that, over time, events and coverage such as today will help us develop more kids who are more aware of, and willing to become involved in, endurance types of activities. I think, as a society, we have bottomed out (no pun intended) in terms of the number of kids who are allowed to become inactive, unfit, obese, and unhealthy. The awareness is growing, the tide is changing, and events such as the TC 10K. are vital stimulants in that change. With respect, those who are missing that point, are missing the bigger picture. The bigger picture as I see it, includes more kids doing more activity, including running of course, and not only being healthier citizens, but providing a much larger base for our future distance running teams... And yes, of course, that won't be automatic, and perhaps that's where the top down and bottom up advocates can meet...
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Post by maser on Apr 25, 2010 17:11:21 GMT -5
RonB. I agree with you on this. Nice to see the community support
for the event. I hope it continues.
Cheers
K
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Post by oldster on Apr 25, 2010 17:23:49 GMT -5
Hey, SI and and francism, watch your tone. You're both an adjective or two away from a "personal attack"!
Interesting discussion: All other things being equal, are huge participant numbers good, bad, or indifferent for the elite side of the sport? As someone who has raced on the road continuously from the "Gyro 10k" era to the present-- or from the time when the Ottawa Race Weekend had 3,000 participants to today, when it has 30,000, or some-such-- I can say that the effect has been largely indifferent to bad (possibly bad because many of the mega races that dominate the race calendars have put a real squeeze for participants and sponsors on some of the smaller races in places like the GTA that used to offer $300-500 prize money-- races that really helped keep me in the sport when I was an elite open guy.) And one thing is certain: Prize money and elite sponsorship in all forms has not kept pace in the least with the huge growth in revenues from races. Prize money purses are generally the same or smaller (marathons included) as they were back in the 80s, yet numbers are up as much a ten-fold in some events. Take the Canada Running Series-- a fantastic set of races in every respect. Prize money purses for these events are actually about the same or smaller (much smaller with inflation figured in) as when the whole thing was based entirely in Toronto, and a fraction of the size in terms of entry numbers! These big events are generating substantial revenues, but they not really going to support the elite end of things-- at least not proportionally. I have my ideas as to why this might be (including that the average participant does care about the elite end of things, and may even harbour some vague hostility toward the idea of the fastest people winning large sums of money, especially if they are "nameless Africans", who seem to have an unsporting "natural advantage" when it comes to running anyway); but I think it's pretty obvious that there is no automatic connection between high numbers and running as a healthy SPORT. I welcome the efforts of people like Manny R, Jim R. and Jon H. in Ottawa, for instance, who seem to be doing their best to forge a stronger connection where this is concerned; but, SI is probably right in arguing (as he always does) that Canadian athletes, starting at the developmental level, are somehow going to have to start meeting them halfway in order for their efforts to continue to be successful.
And re: small race with elite fields, I would go further than SI. I'd like to see more European style road races (if THEY even still have them), with fields of 20 or 30 guys running for decent prize money in criterium style road races in city centres; in other words, I'd like to see running as pure sport-- i.e. rather than "healthy pastime" or charity extravaganza-- exclusively showcased in familiar settings (i.e. not just always on the track, in school-based events, or in Europe) once in a while. (Tim Forrester made a little go of this back in the 90s-- a "peoples" race followed by an invitational elite field running around a city block, funded in part by proceeds from the former.)
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Post by francisccm on Apr 25, 2010 17:51:42 GMT -5
Hmm, but we have to get to the root of the reason as to why the numbers have grown and the elite money hasn't.
How can an average runner "complain" that the prizes are too high, I dont think they do..
I think it is less that the general public dont care as it is that the race directors and sponsors care less about it. Sponsors especially when it comes to taking money away from charity.
That attitude needs to be changed. It would be good if to even create a race, a percentage of the revenue from every race had to be allocated towards the sport of running in someway to qualify with the government as an event whether it is prizes, development programs, scholarships or elite prizes. Because right now there are tons of charity only races that are using the "running race" as something it is not.
I have no problem with raising money for charity through races and running is a great way to do it and increase fitness in our country and I think for that alone, some of the causes benefiting can override the whole sport if need be but I think that a healthy balance could be achieved if even 10% or 5% revenue went back towards the sport things would change a lot.
And everyone on the board is focusing on prize money but not other expenses. I can say that the elite budget for some races has probably increased over the years with participation. So more travel is covered meaning less risk for the athlete.
But yes I agree with Oldster that the growth in numbers does not equal the elite budget or prizes at all but to be honest, without any crowd at all in the current state of the world and current state that distance running is in, where people dont respect running as much as they did, there would not really be any races or prizes anymore. Times have changed and the dynamic has changed with it. No matter what crowds play a part.
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Post by SI on Apr 25, 2010 18:03:17 GMT -5
Where do you dig up these old results from SI. I was actually surprised they were available: lmgtfy.com/?q=gyro+10k+st+catherines&l=1Glad I found them. Some interesting baby boomer stats. Steve was 8th overall in 1984 and 8th in the 19-29 division. One year I was 63rd and 45th in my age class and the other year I was 41st and 31st in my age class. Here is the root of those sites: www.polymorphs.net/Take a look at some of those races. Bunch of local Buffalo area races that were really just an excuse to party. Check out some of the results. Check this one out in particular. It was about 95 degrees but it sure didn't slow down the field. Maher was 8th just before he went to the Olympics. Super master John Campbell ran on one leg(he was literally limping on a bad hammy) and still went 20:11. www.polymorphs.net/results/subaru/1992_subaru_res.html |
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Post by francisccm on Apr 25, 2010 18:04:16 GMT -5
It's a good thing they have value because, in this case, at least, we would be in big trouble. Since 2001, the race has doubled in size and the prize money offered has gone up over 4 fold. The competitive level of the race as defined by the ARRS has declined from 457 to 149(181 to 139 for the women). Payback to the sport must REALLY be long term. If this ARRS looks at the race as a whole then any race that experiences growth in numbers will decline.. That is an unrealistic way of looking at it. As elites only make up a small amount of the race. |
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Post by saskatchewan on Apr 25, 2010 18:05:47 GMT -5
Hey, SI and and francism, watch your tone. You're both an adjective or two away from a "personal attack"! Interesting discussion: All other things being equal, are huge participant numbers good, bad, or indifferent for the elite side of the sport? As someone who has raced on the road continuously from the "Gyro 10k" era to the present-- or from the time when the Ottawa Race Weekend had 3,000 participants to today, when it has 30,000, or some-such-- I can say that the effect has been largely indifferent to bad (possibly bad because many of the mega races that dominate the race calendars have put a real squeeze for participants and sponsors on some of the smaller races in places like the GTA that used to offer $300-500 prize money-- races that really helped keep me in the sport when I was an elite open guy.) And one thing is certain: Prize money and elite sponsorship in all forms has not kept pace in the least with the huge growth in revenues from races. Prize money purses are generally the same or smaller (marathons included) as they were back in the 80s, yet numbers are up as much a ten-fold in some events. Take the Canada Running Series-- a fantastic set of races in every respect. Prize money purses for these events are actually about the same or smaller (much smaller with inflation figured in) as when the whole thing was based entirely in Toronto, and a fraction of the size in terms of entry numbers! These big events are generating substantial revenues, but they not really going to support the elite end of things-- at least not proportionally. I have my ideas as to why this might be (including that the average participant does care about the elite end of things, and may even harbour some vague hostility toward the idea of the fastest people winning large sums of money, especially if they are "nameless Africans", who seem to have an unsporting "natural advantage" when it comes to running anyway); but I think it's pretty obvious that there is no automatic connection between high numbers and running as a healthy SPORT. I welcome the efforts of people like Manny R, Jim R. and Jon H. in Ottawa, for instance, who seem to be doing their best to forge a stronger connection where this is concerned; but, SI is probably right in arguing (as he always does) that Canadian athletes, starting at the developmental level, are somehow going to have to start meeting them halfway in order for their efforts to continue to be successful. And re: small race with elite fields, I would go further than SI. I'd like to see more European style road races (if THEY even still have them), with fields of 20 or 30 guys running for decent prize money in criterium style road races in city centres; in other words, I'd like to see running as pure sport-- i.e. rather than "healthy pastime" or charity extravaganza-- exclusively showcased in familiar settings (i.e. not just always on the track, in school-based events, or in Europe) once in a while. (Tim Forrester made a little go of this back in the 90s-- a "peoples" race followed by an invitational elite field running around a city block, funded in part by proceeds from the former.) I agree Oldster. FYI - criterium racing is alive and well in Europe still. www.iaaf.org/news/kind=100/newsid=56384.htmlMany great race reports in the IAAF site throughout the winter on multi-lap elite still racing. Unfortunately there appears to be a significant lack of creativity in many road races here. Idea - close off downtown streets in a summer evening, have a 'elite' race and a people's race, have a beer garden (a must) and make it part of a festival atmosphere with activites for the kids, street musicians, etc. So, essentially, everything the 8AM sat road race with same dull course followed by bad food and token medal for $60 isn't. |
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Post by SI on Apr 25, 2010 18:33:39 GMT -5
That's funny. looks at the race as a whole then any race that experiences growth in numbers will decline.. That is an unrealistic way of looking at it. As elites only make up a small amount of the race. More hilarity. Set up a false premise and then argue against it. Do a little research and then get back to me. |
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Post by francisccm on Apr 25, 2010 18:49:07 GMT -5
SI: My bad I guess I was wrong. I looked around a bit but couldn't find the numbers you came up with...
I think that on a current Canadian scale this race is up there as a road race with the depth of its male field...
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Post by SI on Apr 25, 2010 18:59:03 GMT -5
It is a calculation that is relative to the top runners in the world at the time of the race. Here is how it is calculated:
"This section lists the most competitive races based on the competitive level calculated for each race with five or more ranked runners. The competitive level is derived from the average point level for the five highest ranked runners in the race (CL5) compared to the average point level for the ten highest ranked runners in the world (CL10) at the time of the race. The competitive level is calculated as 1000 times (CL5-BP) / (CL10-BP) where BP is the base point level (2600 for men, 2500 for women). The competitive level nominally ranges from 1000 (most competitive) to 0 (least competitive) but may exceed these limits on occasion. Competitive levels for races are only available for 1990 to date."
So, despite the sharp increase in prize money and participants, the quality of the field has severely declined(not so much the women) in the last 10 years.
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Post by francisccm on Apr 25, 2010 19:10:08 GMT -5
I checked the results since 2001 and saw quite a few years in there worse in times than this one. i.e not as many times in the 30 min range... also the top 3 runners were not as fast since 2001 either normally.
So the times haven't worsened since 2001 , its just the rest of the world is putting more money in to the overseas elite field recently. It may be a more valid point but I dont think it is as relevant. Since on a Canadian scale this race still ranks up there.
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Post by SI on Apr 25, 2010 19:27:41 GMT -5
The original premise was that this steady increase in runners and dollars was and is good for distance running. It certainly hasn't done much in the last 10 years(at least as far as the results of this race show), either with this race or relative to the rest of the world. Keep in mind that when I have my philanthropic hat on, I think this "event" is great but when I have my track fan hat on, like our local "event", I just can't generate the same level of excitement as that generated by everyone that is close to it.
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Post by francisccm on Apr 25, 2010 19:51:03 GMT -5
Hmm thats a tricky one. I see your point but wouldn't say that the field has declined still.
I think there are many more factors involved and I still believe that the growing participation in this race could be good. They pay top ten and prize money has increased a lot according to you... That is great for those elites in the race. Canadian running has declined overall because of completely separate factors but this race still produces a solid field and maintains its times every year that are on par with a Canadian championship, that has to be achievement. They continue to attract some of the top Canadian athletes of course one races participation rate isnt going to change all athletes PB's in this country, but to say the crowds at this race do nothing for the sport is still wrong I think
I bet it was a lot harder financially for this race to pull together the elite field in past years but now they do it with ease and give back afterwards to other initiatives as ronb mentioned. But yes it could be much better everywhere support is pretty terrible in canada but not due to the crowds.
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Post by ronb on Apr 25, 2010 19:57:31 GMT -5
With the greatest of respect, SI, you are totally missing the point. Accountants often do that as they "self-pleasure" looking at the fine print, and can't see the forest for the trees... The point of this Run is not now, never has been, and never will be, to produce the fastest possible field for one 10K road race. That would be incredibly small thinking, and we have never been guilty of that...So, you see the race as some kind of failure, because some more of those self-absorbed stats. geeks at ARRS say so. Fine, whatever works for you.... Perhaps some of the same thinking that is behind OTP and carding standards and rules... Here's what works for me.... This race has grown exponentially in numbers over the years, and will continue to do so, because of involving the whole community.... There will be 20,000 entrants in this event within a few years, and most will be from Victoria and the Island. Victoria's population is only about 1 % of Canada, so you do the math., and figure out what other cities should be drawing to their mass participation events... Maybe 200,000 in Toronto, or many more, because of all the other urban centres that are within easy driving distance  That would be bad for distance running? ---- you must be kidding, I'm sure you are... The Race has raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for our main charity - the Heart & Stroke Foundation (which has a huge component of involving citizens in aerobic exercise), and hundreds of thousand of dollars in direct profit to the VIRS, which then redistributes the funds to elite athletes, coaches, track meets, outstanding high school athletes, etc., etc., etc... Not to mention all the support that our athletes have received from either prize money, or support from local running stores, and shoe companies, because of the exposure this race now guarantees... Hundreds of thousands of either column inches, or hours of TV/radio coverage, all of which is positive energy for the greater sport of distance running --- nothing negative, ever... Many more families and schools, and the parents and teachers and coaches, are increasingly aware of the importance of running, jogging, walking as an important component of our lives, and our children's lives, and their children's lives... The whole community of Victoria and Vancouver Island is totally consumed with this race this weekend, has been all week, and will be for the next many days as well. Training clinics for next year's run are already being planned, and will probably happen in at least 30 different Rec. Centres for the first 16 months of 2011. Bad thing ? The local TV news was all about the TC 10K, including lots of interviews and footage with the top elite runners, whether from Kenya or Poland or Victoria... As I drove down to the race this morning, there was a traffic jam (early on a Sunday morning) getting into the City. All the main streets were clogged with traffic with people driving to the race. About 2 miles from the race start, I saw the first people walking to the start, and more and more with each passing of a few hundred metres, until it became a wave of people walking to downtown to run a 10K. That's bad? BC Ferries had to put on extra sailings to the Mainland this afternoon to accommodate people returning to the Mainland from the run. It was major news... So you take your ARRS, and I'll take the rest, and if we are both still around in 10 years, we can compare notes.... all the best / ronb P.S. I think I care and know just as much as you, regarding elite distance running... |
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Post by ronb on Apr 25, 2010 20:32:56 GMT -5
Some great stuff starting to show up on times-colonist.com - enjoy! The City and Island are abuzz with 10K. excitement - how great for our sport  |
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Post by pq on Apr 25, 2010 20:36:16 GMT -5
.... races that really helped keep me in the sport when I was an elite open guy... This isn't the first time (this week) you have displayed gratuitous pride in your (former) athletic credentials. Just sayin... (I think gratuitous is superfluous here, but whatever... most people probably don't have a clue where this is coming from, but I may die from irony poisoning) |
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Post by oldster on Apr 25, 2010 22:39:23 GMT -5
Oh, pq, you have mined yet another gem. Hoist on my own petard yet again. Dash it! How can I keep up with you!? ("Just sayin'". Such wit, and yet folksy too! You're a regular Mark Twain, you rapscallion you!).
I was obviously just showing off again, because no one on here actually knew before this that I was once an elite runner (just as no one knew that a certain very successful masters runner and message board wit also possessed his very own PhD, proving his intelligence one and for all). And what I was I thinking trying to pass off my experience as somehow relevant to this discussion-- this discussion of how changes in the sport of road racing that happened during the course of my actual career as an elite distance runner have affected elite distance running? You're right. Gratuitous vanity all the way.
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Post by pq on Apr 26, 2010 6:31:52 GMT -5
Sorry about that Steve, my pq persona wasn't well supervised over the weekend. He managed to get away and play the internet asshole a bit there. In fairness to him, mind you, someone else wrote his material, and as they say, turnabout is fair play.
You keep bringing up my academic background. Something on your mind? I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be ashamed or something. I've already admitted I was embarrassed for having been goaded into bringing it up in the first place. If you keep bringing it up (you've done so more than me), I too may get a swelled head.
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Post by oldster on Apr 26, 2010 7:06:34 GMT -5
Please, I must insist. It's oldster. And speaking of supervision, I didn't want to have to do this, but, if you continue to insist on trying discipline me, or exchange your inane tit for my tat, I may have to notify Mrs pq about your obsessive message boarding-- and we all know what will happen then: you will have to endure another time-out, and the board will be temporarily without not only a great wit, but a regular source of highly detailed insight into the training life of pretty good provincial level masters athlete, whose serious involvement in the sport consists of his own running, and goes back a good six years (and, lord knows, the running world needs as much of that as it is humanly possible for one man to provide.)
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Post by pq on Apr 26, 2010 7:26:20 GMT -5
Good one!
Well, that's a pretty fair (if not maybe entirely factually accurate) assessment of my running accomplishments, which, I think, I've never tried to overstate. Was I meant to be insulted?
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Post by oldster on Apr 26, 2010 14:15:16 GMT -5
Good one! Well, that's a pretty fair (if not maybe entirely factually accurate) assessment of my running accomplishments, which, I think, I've never tried to overstate. Was I meant to be insulted? Insulted? Of course not. To do that, I already know that a person has to unleash something truly heinous, like the words "obtuse", "anal", or (and please forgive me for this one advance) "idiosyncratic". |
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Post by SI on Apr 26, 2010 14:47:43 GMT -5
When did I say this: Or this: P.S. I think I care and know just as much as you, regarding elite distance running... |
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Post by ronb on Apr 26, 2010 19:21:47 GMT -5
When did I say this: Or this: P.S. I think I care and know just as much as you, regarding elite distance running... No problem, SI, I am just asking... Your earlier response "seemed" to me to be judging the value and progress of this race on a single criteria. I am just trying to offer an alternate perspective, which says that races such as these could/should be a valuable building block in laying the foundation for a renewed level of interest and achievement in distance running in Canada. Again, it's not automatic, but the potential is there... |
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Post by ronb on Apr 27, 2010 14:45:07 GMT -5
Last day of major coverage in Today's Times Colonist (I know - some of you saying thank Gawd). There will probably be letters to the Editor, and columns over the next little while.
Today, a whole section was TC 10K. - Section D, 8 pages, mostly person-by-person results, but also a couple of good articles and pictures.
I suspect that the VIRS must have cleared at least $ 100,000. net profit, maybe much more, after all expenses are paid. It will be interesting to see how the money is spent...
Now IF we had 100 TC 10K's across Canada, and they were all controlled by people who care about the future of distance running in Canada, we would have a huge budget and could do some wonderful things.
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That would be bad for distance running? ---- you must be kidding, I'm sure you are...