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Post by oldster on Nov 25, 2009 12:56:53 GMT -5
The Canadian university-age girls are certainly kicking ass, and are to be congratulated. However, I, for one, would be a lot more excited if I thought more of them were headed for serious senior elite careers. I certainly don't want to damn any individual before the fact, but it seems we've had quite a bit of success at this level over the past 10 years without much, or any, conversion into greater depth in the women's ranks in general. University running, as good as it is, is still only the final stage of age-class running, and no one should be peaking in this sport at ages 18-22. We used to have tremendous depth and quality in women's running in Canada without necessarily any greater depth or quality at the age-class level. Until we fix this, it will be hard (for me, at least) to root for Canadian college girls as wholeheartedly as I would like to. As soon as I start to get excited, it strikes me that I likely won't ever see even half of these names again after graduation, which I find a shame.
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oldbones
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Post by oldbones on Nov 25, 2009 13:48:48 GMT -5
Don't be so grim.
Celebrate what success we are afforded.
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Post by kitest on Nov 25, 2009 14:19:50 GMT -5
i agree with oldster's take. it may be grim, but personally, now that i have been afforded years of context, these highly regarded collegiate results (however much i enjoy following them) mean only so much to me.
over 15 years of tracking collegiate results (also including CIS here) i am astounded by how little these gains (in terms of volume of runners and performances these runners have achieved) have translated into a bigger cdn selection for int'l level distance runners!
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yards
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Post by yards on Nov 25, 2009 14:55:50 GMT -5
I'm with oldbones. Let's celebrate success and the present.
Life has a habit of getting in the way of post collegiate running careers.
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Post by krs1 on Nov 25, 2009 14:58:31 GMT -5
Not sure it's as grim as you think. Currently top-40 are all-american. Of those 40 all-americans, only a small percentage go onto post collegiate careers no matter what the nationality, and an even smaller percentage go onto international athletic careers. Looking at Canadians in the top 40 from 1999 on wards: 1999: Carmen Douma 2000: none 2001: Lauren King, Michelle Carson, Carol Henry 2002: Megan Metcalf, Malindi Elmore, Lauren King 2003: Carol Henry, Emily Kroshus, Michelle Carson, Lauren King 2004: Carol Henry, Danette Doetzel, Megan Metcalf 2005: none 2006: Diane Nukuri, Nicole Edwards, Alex Becker 2007: Diane Nukuri, Marie-Louis Asselin, Danette Doetzel 2008: Kendra Schaaf, Marie-Louise Asselin, Katie Engel, Nicole Edwards, Danette Doetzel Douma, Metcalf, Elmore are the clear sauces stories so far. King and Kroshus competed for a year or two after graduation. Carson married Tegenkamp. Not sure of Nukuri. Becker, Doetzel, Engel, Edwards have all competed at the Can. Senior track champs in the past few years. To early to know where they will progress to but they are giving it a shot. Asselin is still finishing up a WVU so unknown yet what her plans are, but typically it seems like Sean Cleary coached athletes continue on post-collegiately. Schaaf still has 2 more years at UW. So of the 13, 10-11 are either still competing or attempted to compete post collegiately. Those are pretty good retention rates imo. The Canadian university-age girls are certainly kicking ass, and are to be congratulated. However, I, for one, would be a lot more excited if I thought more of them were headed for serious senior elite careers. I certainly don't want to damn any individual before the fact, but it seems we've had quite a bit of success at this level over the past 10 years without much, or any, conversion into greater depth in the women's ranks in general. University running, as good as it is, is still only the final stage of age-class running, and no one should be peaking in this sport at ages 18-22. We used to have tremendous depth and quality in women's running in Canada without necessarily any greater depth or quality at the age-class level. Until we fix this, it will be hard (for me, at least) to root for Canadian college girls as wholeheartedly as I would like to. As soon as I start to get excited, it strikes me that I likely won't ever see even half of these names again after graduation, which I find a shame. |
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Post by oldster on Nov 25, 2009 20:14:22 GMT -5
Not sure it's as grim as you think. Currently top-40 are all-american. Of those 40 all-americans, only a small percentage go onto post collegiate careers no matter what the nationality, and an even smaller percentage go onto international athletic careers. Looking at Canadians in the top 40 from 1999 on wards: 1999: Carmen Douma 2000: none 2001: Lauren King, Michelle Carson, Carol Henry 2002: Megan Metcalf, Malindi Elmore, Lauren King 2003: Carol Henry, Emily Kroshus, Michelle Carson, Lauren King 2004: Carol Henry, Danette Doetzel, Megan Metcalf 2005: none 2006: Diane Nukuri, Nicole Edwards, Alex Becker 2007: Diane Nukuri, Marie-Louis Asselin, Danette Doetzel 2008: Kendra Schaaf, Marie-Louise Asselin, Katie Engel, Nicole Edwards, Danette Doetzel Douma, Metcalf, Elmore are the clear sauces stories so far. King and Kroshus competed for a year or two after graduation. Carson married Tegenkamp. Not sure of Nukuri. Becker, Doetzel, Engel, Edwards have all competed at the Can. Senior track champs in the past few years. To early to know where they will progress to but they are giving it a shot. Asselin is still finishing up a WVU so unknown yet what her plans are, but typically it seems like Sean Cleary coached athletes continue on post-collegiately. Schaaf still has 2 more years at UW. So of the 13, 10-11 are either still competing or attempted to compete post collegiately. Those are pretty good retention rates imo. The Canadian university-age girls are certainly kicking ass, and are to be congratulated. However, I, for one, would be a lot more excited if I thought more of them were headed for serious senior elite careers. I certainly don't want to damn any individual before the fact, but it seems we've had quite a bit of success at this level over the past 10 years without much, or any, conversion into greater depth in the women's ranks in general. University running, as good as it is, is still only the final stage of age-class running, and no one should be peaking in this sport at ages 18-22. We used to have tremendous depth and quality in women's running in Canada without necessarily any greater depth or quality at the age-class level. Until we fix this, it will be hard (for me, at least) to root for Canadian college girls as wholeheartedly as I would like to. As soon as I start to get excited, it strikes me that I likely won't ever see even half of these names again after graduation, which I find a shame. That's one way of looking at it, Kevin. But, what if we were to broaden it out a bit a look at the dozens, maybe hundreds, of very good Canadian girls who have gone through the system in this time period, yet who were not AA? To have depth, you need greater post-collegiate participation from within these ranks. And, taking a further step back, I think it's pretty clear that there is a serious crisis in Canadian women's distance running at the moment, and that it is related to extreme lack of depth; and, that it is particularly striking considering how well Canadian girls have been doing in the age class ranks for the past 10 or so years. Hell, we've had all these great college girls, yet we just had two master-age runners compete at the Chiba Ekiden, and there are something like 40 women running the national X-C meet this weekend! And, we had virtually no women's representation at Worlds this year. Consider this in light of the fact that, in 1988, we had two women in the Olympic 10k final, one of whom, in spite of holding the Canadian record for 15 or so years thereafter, never won a national title of any kind in her career, such was the depth in the country during those years. Like I said, what these college girls are doing is fantastic in its own right. But, we're still talking essentially about age-class competition. And, meanwhile, the ranks of serious women distance runners in Canada continue to shrink to crisis levels by almost every measure. Clearly, as exciting as it can be to watch, greater age-class success among our girls is not the solution to this bigger problem. |
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Post by oldster on Nov 25, 2009 20:27:27 GMT -5
Don't be so grim. Celebrate what success we are afforded. This sounds like capitulation to me. |
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Post by krs1 on Nov 25, 2009 20:31:00 GMT -5
I don't know that looking past the AA's is really being realistic about what it takes to have a "serious senior elite career." That's not to say that you can't be successful if you are not an AA, but the odds are certainly against you. And this is not simply a Canadian phenomenom. Of the 250 so athletes of all nationalities who qualify for the NCAA championships, the percentage that go onto "serious senior elite careers" is likely similar to what you are finding on when you look only at the Canadian NCAA competitors. Not sure it's as grim as you think. Currently top-40 are all-american. Of those 40 all-americans, only a small percentage go onto post collegiate careers no matter what the nationality, and an even smaller percentage go onto international athletic careers. Looking at Canadians in the top 40 from 1999 on wards: 1999: Carmen Douma 2000: none 2001: Lauren King, Michelle Carson, Carol Henry 2002: Megan Metcalf, Malindi Elmore, Lauren King 2003: Carol Henry, Emily Kroshus, Michelle Carson, Lauren King 2004: Carol Henry, Danette Doetzel, Megan Metcalf 2005: none 2006: Diane Nukuri, Nicole Edwards, Alex Becker 2007: Diane Nukuri, Marie-Louis Asselin, Danette Doetzel 2008: Kendra Schaaf, Marie-Louise Asselin, Katie Engel, Nicole Edwards, Danette Doetzel Douma, Metcalf, Elmore are the clear sauces stories so far. King and Kroshus competed for a year or two after graduation. Carson married Tegenkamp. Not sure of Nukuri. Becker, Doetzel, Engel, Edwards have all competed at the Can. Senior track champs in the past few years. To early to know where they will progress to but they are giving it a shot. Asselin is still finishing up a WVU so unknown yet what her plans are, but typically it seems like Sean Cleary coached athletes continue on post-collegiately. Schaaf still has 2 more years at UW. So of the 13, 10-11 are either still competing or attempted to compete post collegiately. Those are pretty good retention rates imo. That's one way of looking at it, Kevin. But, what if we were to broaden it out a bit a look at the dozens, maybe hundreds, of very good Canadian girls who have gone through the system in this time period, yet who were not AA? To have depth, you need greater post-collegiate participation from within these ranks. And, taking a further step back, I think it's pretty clear that there is a serious crisis in Canadian women's distance running at the moment, and that it is related to extreme lack of depth; and, that it is particularly striking considering how well Canadian girls have been doing in the age class ranks for the past 10 or so years. Hell, we've had all these great college girls, yet we just had two master-age runners compete at the Chiba Ekiden, and there are something like 40 women running the national X-C meet this weekend! And, we had virtually no women's representation at Worlds this year. Consider this in light of the fact that, in 1988, we had two women in the Olympic 10k final, one of whom, in spite of holding the Canadian record for 15 or so years thereafter, never won a national title of any kind in her career, such was the depth in the country during those years. Like I said, what these college girls are doing is fantastic in its own right. But, we're still talking essentially about age-class competition. And, meanwhile, the ranks of serious women distance runners in Canada continue to shrink to crisis levels by almost every measure. Clearly, as exciting as it can be to watch, greater age-class success among our girls is not the solution to this bigger problem. |
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Post by oldster on Nov 25, 2009 21:16:05 GMT -5
I guess it depends on what one means by "serious senior elite career". By "serious" I mean in terms of commitment and intent. So I'm not necessarily taking about someone world class here. I'm talking about someone with the potential to compete at the national and possibly low-level international level. Surely there are tons of non-AAs with this kind of potential among the dozens of Canadian girls who have gone down there on scholarships over the past 10 years. Along with more really top women, it is this kind of runner that Canada used to have and now sorely lacks, and its killing our domestic women's running scene, the health of which is, I'm convinced, the basis for incubating more top elites. You'd be more familiar with this than I would, Kevin, but this seems to me to be one of the big differences between the U.S. and Canadian women's scenes right now-- there are way more serious national level athletes, even on a per capita basis, training and racing in the U.S. than in Canada, which sustains a certain level of excitement around the sport there that does not exist here at the moment.
As for the relatively few AAs from any country who go on to senior elite careers, maybe this says something about the NCAA, because good female runners are clearly coming from somewhere(!), and some countries clearly have far better depth than others.
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Post by krs1 on Nov 25, 2009 21:24:12 GMT -5
"You'd be more familiar with this than I would, Kevin, but this seems to me to be one of the big differences between the U.S. and Canadian women's scenes right now-- there are way more serious national level athletes, even on a per capita basis, training and racing in the U.S. than in Canada"
Agreed. I think this goes more to the fact that there are more opportunities for US national class athletes to continue with at least some sort of minimal support and training groups. I certainly see many more US athletes getting gear or small contracts that are not even the same calibre as some of the elite Canadian athletes that come out of the NCAA. Then you have a number of national class training groups around the country , and a series of US Road Championships from the mile through the marathon with decent prize money.
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Post by feens on Nov 25, 2009 22:24:36 GMT -5
Don't be so grim. Celebrate what success we are afforded. This sounds like capitulation to me. I don't necessarily dis-agree with your arguments oldster, but I think oldbones has a point. We've had a number of LTAD, post-collegiate participation threads discussing such issues lately, and I thought it was nice to see a thread focused solely on the positive results from our athletes. Perhaps what would benefit these athletes in keeping at it in the long term is taking time to congratulate them, give them some words of encouragement, and not digress into an debate as to whether or not they'll be competitive Canadian distance runners 5 years down the road. On that note: congrats to all those who raced at NCAA's and represented their teams and our country well. I think it's exciting to see our athletes do well whether they choose to run here or elsewhere. |
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Post by oldster on Nov 25, 2009 22:51:26 GMT -5
This sounds like capitulation to me. I don't necessarily dis-agree with your arguments oldster, but I think oldbones has a point. We've had a number of LTAD, post-collegiate participation threads discussing such issues lately, and I thought it was nice to see a thread focused solely on the positive results from our athletes. Perhaps what would benefit these athletes in keeping at it in the long term is taking time to congratulate them, give them some words of encouragement, and not digress into an debate as to whether or not they'll be competitive Canadian distance runners 5 years down the road. On that note: congrats to all those who raced at NCAA's and represented their teams and our country well. I think it's exciting to see our athletes do well whether they choose to run here or elsewhere. That's why I waited till page 3 to say anything  And don't get me wrong, I was watching on Monday along with everyone else and taking due note of how well the Canadian girls were doing. They are clearly a force in NCAA running at the moment, and have been doing pretty well for some time now. My worry, however, is that we may be starting to except age-class success as a substitute for the international success we used to have much more of. This, I think, constitutes a form of giving up. If I were a girl doing well in the NCAA and reading this, I would take it as a challenge not a slight (like a certain Kathy Butler did when, one long forgotten evening in a far away land, I suggested to her that age class running was not the point.) The fact is, the rest of the running world doesn't really care much about the NCAA, because it is essentially and age-class system. It's a great system, to be sure, but success there, particularly if not followed up, is not the be-all and end-all. |
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Post by ronb on Nov 25, 2009 23:31:47 GMT -5
Good discussion - I'm just looking for the right time to offer an opinion or so. In the meantime, a slight correction --- there were 3 Canadian women in the final of the 10K in 1988, and 3 in the 3k final, and 2 (almost 3) in the 1500 m. final. And yes, the African women were just getting going, but there were lots of Eastern European women doing a lot of illegal stuff also. And our 3 women in that 10K. final are ranked # 2, 3, and 5 in our rankings, and their times of 31:50, 31:56, and 32:14 are still very noteworthy.
Of the 6 Canadian women who took 8 spots in the finals in 1988, a couple went to the USA and the rest did not. And they graduated High Schools in Canada from Quebec, Ontario,
Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and B.C.
But they were all living and training in Canada when they achieved their personal bests. And
they were all racing in Beacon Hill Park in February, in Victoria, often, in the 1980's. At a quick guess, I would say at least 20 appearances in the Trials in February by these 6 women. Maybe just a coincidence, but as Universities do not compete in Cross Country at that time of year, neither in Canada or the USA, I take it as more of an individual commitment towards optimal improvement, and later results by all these women would tend to support this theory. University competition, at whatever level and in whichever country, is just a stepping stone to the real world. We ignore that reality at our peril, if we want to achieve success in the longer term.
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Post by bdeacon on Nov 26, 2009 13:16:58 GMT -5
Steve has highlighted a real problem for Canadian distance running (men or women, but likely more with women). However, I think that the issue isn't that runners view their university days as the apex of their involvement in the sport. I think that the issue is that for many it is. There competitive experiences decline rapidly after graduation, and thus there is no longer a compelling reason to continue. They have hit a high water mark.
Ideally, we would have an exciting program that would appeal to those leaving university and make them want to continue in what is a hard sport. We would have a strong club system that would provide a social network that would make leaving the sport undesirable. We would have strong training groups across the country that included more than school athletes (high school or post-sec). We would have a vibrant series of meets where the atmosphere and opportunity to improve was an incentive to compete.
I would argue that these are necessary components to keep athletes engaged beyond university. Although these exist to a greater or lesser degree in some communities, they are not common in our country. In order to present the sport as a worthwhile investment of time/energy/suffering/lost income we need these to be present nationally.
School athletics works well because there is good competition, decent coaching, and a solid social community. We rarely have these elements after graduation. I think it is sad, because these are why I found my post-grad running was so much more enjoyable than my school running.
Cheers,
Bruce
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Post by saskatchewan on Nov 26, 2009 13:31:26 GMT -5
Sounds like we are back to the discussion several weeks ago regarding post-college opportunities I would suggest that if many athletes don't think there is an opportunity to make some $ in the sport (or at a minimum cover their costs) and pursue both a career and stay in the sport competitively it will be a hard sell if they are coming from 5 years of having everything paid for in a US college. I am continually amazed at the lack of $ put into CDN competitive distance running by private canadian companies and individuals, and the reliance of many to see government funding as the only option. To Kevin's earlier point, in the US there are far more $ opportunities offerred to athletes of a lower caliber then many Canadian athletes. I believe there are lots of private $ out there for amateur sport, and that Canadian distance running just hasn't done the job it should in attracting more of this $ to the sport and to athletes coming out of college. With any sort of creativity there are a miriad of sponsorship options which could be set up for athletes on the cusp of national level who need support (not a handout) to keep them motivated and in the sport for the longer term. |
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Post by bdeacon on Nov 26, 2009 19:37:55 GMT -5
It is a bit of a chicken and egg scenario Saskatchewan. I mean sponsors want to invest where they will get exposure. If there are few domestic opportunities for track in Canada, then they are better off putty their promotional money into soccer, swimming, or softball.
If I had $10k to invest in advertising, why would I give it to track? I might think about road running if it fit my business goals, but that is because there are lots of people doing it. We have few Canadian meets, and most of our athletes race mostly in the US or Europe. I am not speaking of guys of Kevin's caliber or even road racers. I am speaking of the next tier down. We need more opportunities for guys to run 3:42 in Canada.
We need to develop a post-collegiate series of meets in small towns or after the nationals. The need for this far supercedes the need for more $ for athletes, because without meets you don't have a compelling business case to sponsor track. In other words, we need to create a product that sponsors want to buy. By creating this product, we increase revenues to the sport and we provide incentive to stay in the sport after university.
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Post by ronb on Nov 26, 2009 20:26:02 GMT -5
Some good points, Bruce. In this area, we need to go Back to the Future...
When athletes went to Nationals in the previous era, there were always very good twilight Meets before and after, so that the large air-fare expenditures from some athletes could result in 3 Meets rather than one.
Hard to believe, but Ken Elmer helped to bring International Track & Field not only to Vancouver (Burnaby) and Victoria, but also to Prince George, Kamloops, Kelowna, New Westminster, Abbotsford, Richmond, Port Alberni, and some I may have missed. And that's just on our western outpost...
We had evening Meets, reasonable crowds, good rabbits, and excellent distance races, and the performances reflected those factors.
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oldbones
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And so it goes ...
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Post by oldbones on Nov 26, 2009 21:08:41 GMT -5
Running elite series races, like the mile/1500m, between half-times at soccers games ... ie in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal (MLS Cities)... like Burnaby has a history of, is something we as a running community have not capitalized upon.
Add in track side betting ...
In my opinion for a "track series/semi pro circuit/development circuit" to establish itself
track/running has to twin with a similar popular spectacle sport in order to survive and grow.
Soccer is one sport with many connections to running/athletic development throughout many stages/cycles.
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F.T
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Post by F.T on Nov 28, 2009 22:30:05 GMT -5
Running elite series races, like the mile/1500m, between half-times at soccers games ... ie in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal (MLS Cities)... like Burnaby has a history of, is something we as a running community have not capitalized upon. Add in track side betting ... In my opinion for a "track series/semi pro circuit/development circuit" to establish itself track/running has to twin with a similar popular spectacle sport in order to survive and grow. Soccer is one sport with many connections to running/athletic development throughout many stages/cycles. Wouldnt some runners pontentially find this degrading? I mean, it seems sort of similar to the timbits hockey teams they bring out in between hockey intermissions. I still think this is a great idea  |
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Post by feens on Nov 28, 2009 22:47:59 GMT -5
Wouldnt some runners pontentially find this degrading? I mean, it seems sort of similar to the timbits hockey teams they bring out in between hockey intermissions. I still think this is a great idea Sidney Crosby played Timbit Hockey....also, it's one way to get some large crowd support for the runners. Interesting idea, and thinking out of the box. |
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And don't get me wrong, I was watching on Monday along with everyone else and taking due note of how well the Canadian girls were doing. They are clearly a force in NCAA running at the moment, and have been doing pretty well for some time now. My worry, however, is that we may be starting to except age-class success as a substitute for the international success we used to have much more of. This, I think, constitutes a form of giving up. If I were a girl doing well in the NCAA and reading this, I would take it as a challenge not a slight (like a certain Kathy Butler did when, one long forgotten evening in a far away land, I suggested to her that age class running was not the point.) The fact is, the rest of the running world doesn't really care much about the NCAA, because it is essentially and age-class system. It's a great system, to be sure, but success there, particularly if not followed up, is not the be-all and end-all. 
