Whitfield/Woodfine/Triathlon...

[ronb]

One of my "tired old themes" is that we really need to be trying to work with the triathlon folks, in terms of developing young Canadian distance runners and triathletes. The correlation between Run/Jump/Throw programs, as supported by our Provincial and National Bodies, and eventual elite distance runners (over 1500 metres) is close to zero. At least, compared to the possible aerobic fitness benefits of Run/Cycle/Swim programs for young kids, that the Triathlon people are pushing.
The young triathletes should be encouraged to keep up both the triathlon and their running. Woodfine is obviously Exhibit A, but there are dozens if not hundreds of other young Canadians getting very fit from cross-training/cross-racing, and we should all be trying to encourage that as much as possible.
We all know that Simon Whitfield is not only a double Olympic medallist in the Tri., but is also a very fine runner. But Simon,
at age 34, knows he has to run faster to take on the likes of
Brownlee and Gomez at the World and Olympic level over the next few years. The medals at these events are increasingly going to the "runners".
Along these lines, Simon and other top Tri. folks are doing some running with Jon Brown's group in Victoria.
And, at the moment, several of the Tri. guys from Victoria are on a 10 day training camp in Portland. Wait for it ... to train with Alberto Salazar and friends , and try to find a few more ways to run even faster. Whitfield and Bairu are doing workouts together ---- how awesome is that?
So, Tristan....keep your running going, bud. If you want to be near the top of the World in 2016 in Triathlon, you are going to have to run very fast...

[oldster]

Having worked with quite a few young tri people, I'm a late convert to this approach, Ron. I think you're right, both that tri training is good for future distance runners, and that the tri is gradually going to the runners. But, I'd still like to see more talented kids give straight up running a shot-- once they get old enough to do the training.

[powerboy]

I have a slightly different take on the subject. I just observed Woodfine and Joanna Brown win their respective Ofsaa titles. My thought is that they both have (at this stage in their careers) a natural advantage over the runners only group because they are probably out-training them 2or 3 to 1.
In general, in age class running the fittest kids win, so all their additional training is paying big dividends. But if we look at the elite end of things, no one in triathalon would likely be a candidate for a 5 or 10k medal at the Olympics, so it is not a long term solution.BTW, Joanna Brown sure looks like a runner!

[ronb]

I'm also a late convert to this approach, Steve, but with a lot of the tri. elite doing training in Victoria, I'm seen the benefits of early cross-training, first hand.
I agree, powerboy --- this is not an automatic solution to winning medals at the Olympic games in the distance events (as if there were one I also agree that some of the young tri. athletes may turn out to be better runners than they are triathletes, but time will tell --- just get fit and have fun - that is the main message prior to the age(s) of specialization.
I don't see how extra CV loading on the younger developing athletes can be a bad thing, especially when the amount of direct impact loading (i.e. running) can remain moderate, even while the hours of aerobic energy production can be high. I think that might just be a "1st World adaptation" to some of the "3rd World advantages", which of course is where a lot of our distance running rivals become so good. I also see that the various modalities of training "may" help to prevent burnout. I am not claiming to be an expert on this at all...I just see some really positive potential for young Canadians and our sport, and I don't think we should ignore or shy away from this potential, especially over some ownership issues...

[mralexmoher]

my chiropractor said he used to beat Simon Whitefield at ofsaa around 30-40th place, (correct me if i'm wrong) but he just really worked at it and eventually made a career for himself in triathlon. Sure, Woodfine is incredible, but you never know who could come out on top in the later years

[CTaylor]

Ron/Steve - some perspective from the triathlon side of things....

At the elite level of triathlon, the sport isn't trending towards runners, it's been largely dominated by runners for years. If anything, the new generation of ITU athletes are more well-rounded (ie. strong across all three disciplines), but fast running still sets the top performers apart from their competitors.

In terms of development, we do actually encourage the young kids (12 & under) who compete in triathlons to participate in a broad range of sports, and hold off on specializing. We also actively encourage adolescents and teens (12+) to seek out quality coaching with local swim and/or run clubs, because there are very few youth triathlon clubs, and because there are some really excellent coaches available to young athletes here in Ontario. By approx age 15-17, we begin to encourage athletes to commit one/two sports. With the limited number of youth triathlon clubs, we're hopefully influencing some kids to stick with their run (or swim) clubs during that time (~16 years old) when clubs tend to see a big drop in participation.

If triathlon is one of those sports that athletes want to commit to, that's great. If not, that's great too - hopefully we've contributed to their future success somewhere else. Clearly, I'm making some broad generalizations here, and sometimes the progression is a bit different, but you get the idea.

There have been some successful runners who have come from a triathlon background, and certainly many successful triathletes who have a strong running background.

On the issue of co-operation, I'd like to single out two run coaches here in Ontario who have played a key role in supporting and developing some of Ontario's best young running/triathlon talent; Steve Boyd in Kingston, and Steve Weiler in London. I've had the pleasure to work with both coaches on occasion, and currently have athletes in my program who developed under these coaches - they are both committed to seeing their athletes excel in their chosen discipline, and they run excellent programs. So while there may not be much official collaboration at the PGB/NSF level between the sports, there are certainly many examples of individual coaches working to support young triathletes, swimmers and runners....and that's probably going to be the most effective way to get the job done.

[MattMc]

Nov 9, 2009 18:37:57 GMT -5 powerboy said:

In general, in age class running the fittest kids win, so all their additional training is paying big dividends.

As opposed to non-age class running where the fittest runners don't win and training does not pay big dividends?!

[ronb]

Thanks for the post, CTaylor.
Just to clarify my earlier posts, I know exactly how much work that Whitfield, Jones, McMahon, Tichelaar, etc., have put into the "well-rounded" approach. And I also know, for a fact, that the emergence of Brownlee especially, has created a new reality for the elite of the elite, those very few who hope to medal at the top International level. And thus Whitfield, after many years of working up the swim and bike portions to that level, has now gone back to optimizing his run. So yes, being "fairly elite" requires the ability to be good at all three components, but if you have to come off the swim/bike at the Olympics or Worlds, and try to run down some guys that can run 28 something for 10K., you better have some serious running legs...

[CTaylor]

to mralexmoher: I haven't seen Simon W's XC results, but he did run ~9:20 as a midget and ~9:00 as a junior for the 3000 at OFSAA, so he certainly demonstrated some running talent early on. But he worked his tail off for years, and still does, and is always working on improving.

to ron: I agree, Brownlee and Gomez are redefining mens' racing, but as I wrote earlier, the fastest runners have always won the majority of races in draft-legal tri - it's not really a situation of medals increasingly going to runners lately. The two things that differentiate Brownlee and Gomez are 1) they reached the top at a young age compared to those before them; 2) they swim in the top 8 or 10 of any race. Traditionally the top runners had inconsistent (or downright poor) swim performances, but were still able to win races. Now the top runners are also the top swimmers (and awfully strong riders). So it's not a case of being simply "good" at all three disciplines, these guys are world class in the swim/bike, and a step above that in the run. Gone are the days of running down the lead pack at the big races - the contenders need to be in the front pack from the start to have a chance. And then of course, to match brownlee's standalone 10k pb of 28:36, you better have some serious running legs.

Anyways, back to your original post: what would you suggest running programs do, at the development level or the elite level, in order to lift Canadian running? A closer partnership with tri programs, introducing more cross-training in their current club settings, encourage some triathlon racing for their athletes?

[pg]

I've always said running coaches should be looking at the pool to find talent. Go to any elite swim club and you will find many fast swimmers trapped in runners bodies.(skinny) Running coaches should convince these kids to run before the tri people get to them. Increasingly the tri people are getting there first. Many of our fast runners in the past came from swimming backgrounds. A 15 year old kid may have more than 5 or six years of strong aerobic background in his her her system. Give them a few months of running and many of these people will smoke and do smoke the 12 year old phenoms that are talked about frequently on this board.

[ahutch]

Nov 9, 2009 21:26:42 GMT -5 CTaylor said:

I haven't seen Simon W's XC results, but he did run ~9:20 as a midget and ~9:00 as a junior for the 3000 at OFSAA...

Simon finished 4th (or maybe 5th?) at OFSAA XC as a junior.

[limestonemiler]

Anyone heard of Lukas Verzbicas?

[Flat-out]

Nov 9, 2009 22:18:45 GMT -5 limestonemiler said:

Anyone heard of Lukas Verzbicas?

The name does ring a bell.

[CTaylor]

Nov 9, 2009 21:48:41 GMT -5 pg said:

Running coaches should convince these kids to run before the tri people get to them. Increasingly the tri people are getting there first.

Maybe I'm taking your post too literally, but in my opinion, kids shouldn't need convincing (and swim clubs will quickly close their doors to outside coaches who go down that road). If we're competing with each other for talent, how are we (swimming, running, triathlon, other endurance sports) ever going to compete with other countries? I think that's part of what ronb was getting at.

From a talent ID/Development perspective, I have yet to convince a pure swimmer or a pure runner to take up triathlon. Every athlete I've worked with has at least dabbled in triathlon and/or running/swimming, and I've certainly recommended more aspiring triathletes to run clubs than triathlon clubs. There simply aren't that many full time youth triathlon clubs around, and when a young triathlete asks for advice on how to develop, I usually recommend the local swim and/or run club. There just aren't that many 'tri people' out there working with kids, although there are some cities with strong programs across the country.

So rather than competing and convincing, we'd likely get further by collaborating. Triathlon might 'lose' a few kids to running....running might 'lose' a few kids to triathlon...but if you take the view that you want whats best for the athlete, and you want kids in your program who are intrinsically motivated to be there, we're not really losing anything. Endurance sport is a tough game, and it takes years to develop an athlete - those kids will have to love what they do, and be driven to do it, and no amount of convincing is going to light that fire in them. But exposing them to different options, each with quality coaching and positive environments, will likely lead them to something they're passionate about. And then you'll have athletes with deeper commitment who are more likely to be in it for the long run.

[wetcoast]

How many kids swim or triathlon or bike in Canada versus how many play soccer?

Soccer is closer to track and cross-country running, because obviously it is a game requiring running and a lot of it.

Isn't soccer the most played sport in Canada by kids? If you have a massive pool to draw from, then the likelihood of finding talent is much greater. This, I think could be done without the appearance of cannibalism - or poaching. Promote running to the soccer community as a valuable form of training to help their soccer fitness.

This is where the sheer numbers are. Soccer breaks the kids into levels pretty early, Gold, Silver and Bronze. I coached for years and some very fast kids...sometimes...have no skill in soccer - this comes out in the wash at age 11/12 as they go to full field and 11 a-side, with off-side 100% as a rule and the tiered levels. This is a good time to market to soccer players 11 to 12 or 13 years of age.

[ronb]

Run/Bike/Swim/Kick (as in, a soccer ball)
Any local group that puts together an organization that is successful in getting great numbers of kids engaging in all these activities will produce a lot of great athletes, including distance
runners. A multi-sport club whose main activities are running, cycling, swimming, and soccer and who start kids off young, and having fun, and getting fitter, would be a good thing.

CTaylor - I agree with a lot of your excellent perspectives and attitudes.

pg - So that's why you were always lurking around swimming pools ! I was wondering about your motivations

[ronb]

Somewhat germane to this topic...
Young Canadian triathlete, Andrew McCartney, has this quote on his blog...
I've been a swimmer and runner since I was a young lad of 8. My swim coach said,
"Andrew you're a swimmer, don't waste your legs on land". My run coach said, "Andrew forget about swimming, you're a runner."
I thought that I would have to make a choice but, inspired by Simon Whitfield's gold medal in 2000, the clouds lifted and it became obvious --- I needed to get myself a bike...

Andrew is part of the tri. group down in Portland, and has some interesting info. on his blog about that experience.

[coachfaulds]

My daughter is a swimmer who just ran her first OFSAA. She is a pretty decent swimmer and was 10th in the 1500m at provincials last summer. She does a lot of swim training and is a distance swimmer so she has a really good aerobic engine. I coach at the high school that she goes to and we didn't start her on any run training until mid-August. Her first few weeks of run training were just about getting some legs under her and then we got into normal xc workouts. She had a very good season for a "non-runner" and ended up 5th in the midget girls race last weekend in spite of being off school sick all the previous week.

I am a strong believer in cross-training and have been focusing on tri-training and racing after starting as a runner.

[AndrePaul]

I have to say I agree with wetcoast. Not calling myself an elite runner by any means but I started taking distance running seriously going into my last year of high school. I was recruited by my high school cross-country coach in grade 11 (They needed a 4th man to make up a team). He asked the soccer coach if "there was anyone who could run 5k without walking". The soccer coach very crazy competitive so he had the entire team run "for training" but then really got into the entire team scoring system. Not sure if he was the biggest fan when in grade 12 I told him I wanted to run fast on the track so wouldn't be playing for him in the spring, but he understood.

Also, for all those Ontario high school kids out there; many people don't realize the 3k ofsaa record holder also swam 4-5 times a week. I know that one of the kohlmeir sister also went to ofsaa swimming, she ran great in high school. Somethign to think about anyways........

Adding to CT post, yes you have to be fast in all 3...look at the last world cup....the winner killed himself on the bike on a very difficult bike course and built himself a huge lead and picked up the W. 2nd place also went to another athlete who broke away....yes a bit rare (double individual bike breakway). However, in my opinion that is why triathlon is a really cool sport, there are so many different variables that can occur.

[coachj]

Nov 9, 2009 21:48:41 GMT -5 pg said:

I've always said running coaches should be looking at the pool to find talent. Go to any elite swim club and you will find many fast swimmers trapped in runners bodies.(skinny) Running coaches should convince these kids to run before the tri people get to them. Increasingly the tri people are getting there first. Many of our fast runners in the past came from swimming backgrounds. A 15 year old kid may have more than 5 or six years of strong aerobic background in his her her system. Give them a few months of running and many of these people will smoke and do smoke the 12 year old phenoms that are talked about frequently on this board.

Just this year we have 3 from the pool and WoW! They are coming along nicely. I also have a 40+ swimmer that was a rec runner turned road runner, she is already smoking the work-outs!

so, yes - we always have to look at other grounds for future talent , even if at the least we begin to introduce running as the cross training of their primary sport.. It has been working for us..

[oldster]

Belated thanks for the props, coachct. And I agree that "competing" with other sports for young athletes is counterproductive (and wrong, I would add). We should be leaving the competing up to the athletes themselves. My first love is, of course, running, and I am a running coach; but, I realize that kids ultimately have to make up their own minds about how, and whether, they want to specialize, even if I might advise them to stick with running. And, I love it that any kid would choose an endurance sport of any kind over the options, so I'm just as enthusiastic about working with multi-sport kids as I am with runners. Finally, we older running coaches have to understand the attraction of triathlon for kids these days. Unfortunately, many of them don't see distance running as something in which they could excel at the highest levels (wrongly, I think, but that's the reality). At the same time, they see someone like Simon W. winning Olympic medals in the tri. When I was coming up, I didn't think that excelling in distance running was something exotic and unattainable, because I saw tons of non-East Africans doing very well. With simultaneous rise of the East Africans and the demise of Europeans, Americans, and even the Japanese, to some extent, our kids have less reason to see themselves as future world class distance runners. (As an interesting aside, it is not so much that East Africans are so much better; its that non-East Africans have become so much slower in the last 20 years. The best Europeans, Americans and Japanese of the 70s and 80s would still be competitive today). Meanwhile, stardom in the tri beckons...

[andrin]

The following is a link to Lukas Verzbicas' post-race interview after his 14:18 5k. The bit starting at 1:52 reiterates exactly what Oldster mentioned above.

www.runnerspace.com/video.php?do=view&video_id=9087

[ronb]

Whitfield has posted a funky little video/audio, to do with training with Bairu and friends in Portland. Kyle Jones also has some comments on his blog about the experience. The links will appear here soon, as if by magic, I hope.

[slamer]

Nov 11, 2009 12:05:50 GMT -5 oldster said:

Unfortunately, many of them don't see distance running as something in which they could excel at the highest levels (wrongly, I think, but that's the reality). At the same time, they see someone like Simon W. winning Olympic medals in the tri. When I was coming up, I didn't think that excelling in distance running was something exotic and unattainable, because I saw tons of non-East Africans doing very well. With simultaneous rise of the East Africans and the demise of Europeans, Americans, and even the Japanese, to some extent, our kids have less reason to see themselves as future world class distance runners. (As an interesting aside, it is not so much that East Africans are so much better; its that non-East Africans have become so much slower in the last 20 years. The best Europeans, Americans and Japanese of the 70s and 80s would still be competitive today). Meanwhile, stardom in the tri beckons...

I have to agree. Take Coe as an example. He would still be dominating had he been running today. Only Wilson has beaten his time.

Although until this past year, the Japanese had been the 3 time defending Marathon team world champs (at least among the men). Winning in 2003, 2005 & 2007. So I don't think they've drop off all that much. It's just the numbers of Kenyas, Ethiopians and others have increased dramatically (e.g. 53 Kenya's have a better Marathon time this year than Ryan Hall's 2:09:40, and 16 runners have run faster than his PB this year)

And Paul Tergat said it best (to paraphrase): It's all in what you believe is possible. (after stating that he didn't run to school as a kid, or train on a mountain).

[ronb]

I agree that attitude and self-belief are important components of the puzzle.
But they can only take you so far, if you have been a sit-on-your-ass kid for most of your life until you discover training. The non-Africans from the 1960's/70's/80's, who were achieving excellence at the World level in distance running, were much, much, much more active as kids than almost all of our children today. It wasn't all that long ago that you didn't get rides anywhere - you walked or ran or cycled, or you didn't go. So the number of kids who had both a natural fitness level, that intersected with the many other qualities required to be an elite endurance athlete, was much higher a few decades ago. Of course, I am referring to the "1st World" nations, where the decline in endurance performance has been the most dramatic. Thus, we are discussing ways of keeping more kids very active, and having a lot of fun, and being much fitter when it becomes time to "train hard". I see our "base" of talent, defined as more fitter 10 - 15 year old kids, as being very narrow and in need of expansion, before we develop more than the very occasional world-level runner. And I see the current National model not reflecting that reality, at all...

[coachj]

We need fitter and more active 7-8-9 year olds - Just as much for mental health as it is for CV - the rest will fall into place - -

"attitude and self-belief are important components of the puzzle" - this is what stops runners from running in the end..They find another "fix" to fill that void.

The LTAD program will not produce World Class runners unless we identify the talent early and remove them to a more specific routine. LTAD is good for house league development but allows too much opportunity to miss key development windows for the more talented athlete.

If we follow the LTAD program we will have a nation of 8 minute milers that don't wanna train to run 4 minutes or quit because they can only run a 5 minute mile in grade 11...

[CTaylor]

Nov 14, 2009 8:53:39 GMT -5 coachj said:

The LTAD program will not produce World Class runners unless we identify the talent early and remove them to a more specific routine.

Actually, there's very good evidence that precocious performers tend not to be stars at later ages, and an early focus on specialized training (let's say prior to age 13-14 for argument's sake) tends to result in early drop-out from sport. There was another thread on this recently. A broad sport experience, with lots of different skills and opportunities seems to be the best approach.

LTAD is good for house league development but allows too much opportunity to miss key development windows for the more talented athlete.

I used to believe that stuff about development windows too - why wouldn't we believe it, given the prevalence of the LTAD? Surprisingly, the articles cited in the LTAD do not support the concept of 'windows of trainability' in any way - I've read them all, except for one which I couldn't find in a translated version. In fact, there is very good evidence that the opposite is in fact true - training during the 'windows' has no impact - no harm either, but no benefit. A example: one study followed sets of identical twin brothers (therefore genetically identical) through puberty... one brother trained for months, and the other remained sedentary. Their VO2 increased at the exactly same rate through puberty - training during the "sensitive period" had no effect on their progression.

Some parts of the LTAD (ie. the FUNdamentals, etc) are excellent, but the 10,000 hour rule and windows of trainability in particular, are junk science. You're starting to see rumblings of a backlash against LTAD in the UK - I wonder how long it will take here.

www.theleisurereview.co.uk/articles09/brunel.pdf

www.sportdevelopment.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48:rgltad&catid=47:ruffguides&Itemid=74

[pg]

Good points Ron. Most of the younger posters on this board don't realize the basic fitness of the kids in the 60's and 70's. At my school k-9 you could not stay in for lunch if you lived less than a mile from the school. In order to stay you needed special permission. Most mom's were stay at home or you learned at an early age how to make a sandwich. I lived almost exactly one mile so it was 4 miles of running or walking almost everyday. I was the norm. I was involved in skating and swimming when I was younger the pool was about 1200m away and the rink was about a k. We walked at 5 or 6 in the morning. I remember being stopped by the police once and having to explain with my brother what we were doing out at 5 in the morning. The cop had no problem with it. Now my parents would be up on child abuse charges.
Funny story. Once in grade six I had a book report due and I had just the rough copy done so I conveniently left it at home. My teacher didn't fall for that . Her response in the middle of the afternoon was, "go get it"so I ran home to retrieve it in the middle of the afternoon. She gave me a B I believe saying " I gave you that for the run not for the quality of the assignment." My first renumeration for running I guess. You would loose your license sending a kid home alone on foot if you did that now.

[oldster]

Nov 14, 2009 13:10:14 GMT -5 CTaylor said:

Nov 14, 2009 8:53:39 GMT -5 coachj said:

The LTAD program will not produce World Class runners unless we identify the talent early and remove them to a more specific routine.

Actually, there's very good evidence that precocious performers tend not to be stars at later ages, and an early focus on specialized training (let's say prior to age 13-14 for argument's sake) tends to result in early drop-out from sport. There was another thread on this recently. A broad sport experience, with lots of different skills and opportunities seems to be the best approach.

LTAD is good for house league development but allows too much opportunity to miss key development windows for the more talented athlete.

I used to believe that stuff about development windows too - why wouldn't we believe it, given the prevalence of the LTAD? Surprisingly, the articles cited in the LTAD do not support the concept of 'windows of trainability' in any way - I've read them all, except for one which I couldn't find in a translated version. In fact, there is very good evidence that the opposite is in fact true - training during the 'windows' has no impact - no harm either, but no benefit. A example: one study followed sets of identical twin brothers (therefore genetically identical) through puberty... one brother trained for months, and the other remained sedentary. Their VO2 increased at the exactly same rate through puberty - training during the "sensitive period" had no effect on their progression.

Some parts of the LTAD (ie. the FUNdamentals, etc) are excellent, but the 10,000 hour rule and windows of trainability in particular, are junk science. You're starting to see rumblings of a backlash against LTAD in the UK - I wonder how long it will take here.

www.theleisurereview.co.uk/articles09/brunel.pdf

www.sportdevelopment.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48:rgltad&catid=47:ruffguides&Itemid=74

Wow, coachj, how many times, and in how many different ways, can you lose this argument before you abandon your "gut" and actually engage in some learning on the subject? Generally, you have to understand something before you can proceed to reinvent it. You've accused me and others of being blinkered on this topic, but your persistence in denial of concrete evidence of any kind, even when it is served to you on a plate, is astounding.

[jdome]

Nov 14, 2009 13:19:24 GMT -5 pg said:

Most of the younger posters on this board don't realize the basic fitness of the kids in the 60's and 70's. At my school k-9 you could not stay in for lunch if you lived less than a mile from the school. In order to stay you needed special permission. Most mom's were stay at home or you learned at an early age how to make a sandwich. I lived almost exactly one mile so it was 4 miles of running or walking almost everyday. I was the norm. I was involved in skating and swimming when I was younger the pool was about 1200m away and the rink was about a k. We walked at 5 or 6 in the morning. I remember being stopped by the police once and having to explain with my brother what we were doing out at 5 in the morning. The cop had no problem with it. Now my parents would be up on child abuse charges.
Funny story. Once in grade six I had a book report due and I had just the rough copy done so I conveniently left it at home. My teacher didn't fall for that . Her response in the middle of the afternoon was, "go get it"so I ran home to retrieve it in the middle of the afternoon. She gave me a B I believe saying " I gave you that for the run not for the quality of the assignment." My first renumeration for running I guess. You would loose your license sending a kid home alone on foot if you did that now.

So I guess you walked uphill to school, both ways in epic snowstorms too?