another young girl racing too much?

[im]

Anyone know anything about Kirsten Vergara from Toronto? She's a grade 7 girl.

She ran 18:11 at the Toronto Marathon 5K Sunday in between her elementary xc race last week and today.(won toronto city championships) Three races in one week. That's a lot of racing. If you look her name up in sportstats, she's even been racing Sporting Life 10K for 2 years now... a 11 year old girl run 10K's?

Another young talented girl possibly being raced into the ground?

[oldster]

No. THIS time it will be different. It always is.

Also:

-she loves it, and it's entirely her choice (even though she couldn't possibly know any better, and it's an adult who's entering her and driving her around).

-her dad/coach has a special plan so that it will all work out for the best, despite the odds.

-it's O.K. because she's actually the next Mary Decker/Zola Budd, not the next Stephanie Smith (even though there's only been one Mary Decker and one Zola Budd in 40 years and about 500 Stephanie Smiths).

The beat goes on...

[john]

If you go to Chiptime Results you'll notice she raced the 5km Run for Hope in Oakville on Thanksgiving Monday (October 12). So make that four races in about a week and a half. We need an A&E-style intervention; and not for her, but for her dad.

[ronb]

I really think we should stay WAY back, in terms of judging what a youngster is doing under their parent's supervision. I don't disagree with any of the opinions tendered here, but I don't think this is the appropriate forum for such discussion.

[spartan]

I am aware of a 13 year old girl from my community who ran the half marathon in Toronto last weekend
1:57 with her dad. I saw her parents before the race and they were so proud that they had finally found a half marathon where the organisers would let a 13 year old run. They said they had been trying for a marathon but were not having any luck finding one that would allow her to enter! As the parents were talking I saw their bleary eyes and they seemed convinced that this was the right thing to do.
I saw the young lady today and she said she had fun although she threw up 4 times during the half marathon!

Is there a way that there could be some regulation that does not allow young kids to race more than 5 km at max?

[pq]

Oct 22, 2009 20:35:07 GMT -5 ronb said:

I don't disagree with any of the opinions tendered here, but I don't think this is the appropriate forum for such discussion.

I'm with Ron on this one.

But at the same time I know there will be discussion about this whenever it happens, and I'm not in favour of stifling discussion. Just not the sort of topic I'd personally raise in a public forum. Now we're dragging some young teenage girl into a public discussion she likely wants (and deserves) no part in.

If you could go after the parents somehow without involving the child...

[jbrecher]

Oct 22, 2009 20:35:07 GMT -5 ronb said:

I really think we should stay WAY back, in terms of judging what a youngster is doing under their parent's supervision.

Is it fair to judge the coach who's supervising her training? According to this article, National Triathlon Team coach Barrie Shepley is her personal coach:

www.c3online.ca/index.shtml

Shouldn't he know better?

[oldster]

Ron, pq, I certainly hear you. However, I'm so sick of this crap that I'm not against a little public shaming, even if the girl in question is hurt somewhat by it. She will be hurt less by finding out that some people think her dad and coach are morons than by what they are doing to her/allowing her to do to herself. And, there's a chance that the knowledge that others close to the sport know what's going on will help bring her dad and coach, or coach/dad, to their/his senses. I'm not talking about an article in the Globe here; a hardcore, specialist forum like this one, however, is built for this purpose, as long as no one goes completely overboard.

P.S. I realize that there are far worse kinds of bad parenting out there than this; but, this kind concerns a sport I happen to love, so it especially pisses me off.

[coachbarrie]

I have just become a member to your site after one of my athletes sent me the link to this particular topic. As one of Kirsten's coaches, I thought it would be appropriate to provide feedback on the remarks made and to make sure the "over-the-top" parent/coach perception is corrected. As a run coach for nearly 30 years and a national triathlon coach for 20+, I have seen many dozens of talented kids who never made it out of their teens. One of the reasons Kirsten's parents sought me out last year, was the fact that I have many athletes in their mid to late 20s, who have trained and raced with me for 10-15 years and they know that longevity and academic accomplishment are more important to me than initial running or triathlon results. My dealings with Kirsten's parents over the past year have been fantastic, and I have complete confidence they have no intentions of overly pushing / rushing their daugther.

Kirsten's incredible desire to run/race, DID end up with her and her parents registering her for more races, in a shorter period of time in Mid Sept/early Oct than I (and most of the readers) believe is optimal for a young girl. The family are aware, that many talented kids in the past have over raced and trained for 2-5 years in their early teens and then were injured and gone from the sport completely. That is the last thing that Kirsten's family or I, want for her future.

Our collective family goal is to see Kirsten running fast 5000m times and world-class triathlon performances when she is in her early 20s (not injured and retired). In the one year I have worked with Kirsten, I have been amazed at how fast she can run (on such small total weekly workloads). My senior athletes and top age group athletes love this amazing young girl like she is their little sister and will make sure that she is protected from over training and racing.

To prevent long term injury and burnout we have set 3 (maximum of 4) runs a week. As a tri-coach, I have always believed that cross-training is an invaluable tool to improve 99% of people's running and total fitness (while reducing injuries). Simon Whitfield is one of Canada's great examples of a good high school runner, who used cross-training not only to win an Olympic gold medal, but to also become a very good senior runner in his mid-twenties. England's Allister Brownlee recently ran very low 29 minutes for 10 000m (after biking 40km and swimming 1500m at the World Triathlon Championships in Australia). At those World Championships Whitfield ran 29:51 for his 10k split off the bike. One of Canada's current running star, Tara Quinn, use to train for triathlons with me fifteen years ago and it is great to see her still racing at such a high international level.

Its easy when you are as talented and motivated as Kirsten is, to fall into the trap of wanting to run daily and than end up over-racing and becoming injured. No one is immune to injury and my priority is to ensure that Ontario and all of Canada can be one day proud of Kirsten's future athletic accomplishments. For now, our intention is to make sure that this talented little girl has time for her school, her friends and the other exciting sport and social activities young kids should be involved in as they grow up. Only time will tell whether Kirsten has been handled properly but I am confident that all of the stakeholders involved in her development are aware of past problems in the sport and better strategies to reduce injury and burnout.

Sincerely
Barrie Shepley
2000 Olympic Triathlon Coach
Passionate Supporter of Life-Long Sport for all
[e-mail]

[ronb]

Thanks for posting....I share many of your perspectives, but aside from that, I respect that we need to hear from and really listen to others who care about kids and activity, whether that is a total mesh with our own belief systems, or not....
Again, thanks, Barrie....

[nscoach67]

I coach this age group, so I definitely have some thoughts. I'll try really hard to make them politically correct (especially if any of my parents read this board, I wish they would actually).

I started working with a 12 year old girl this summer, and yesterday she just competed in her first provincial Jr. high school cross country championships race a distance of 3k.

The one thing that was evident as she raced against the much larger grade 8 girls that are in this age category is just how much growing that they will do in a year.

The other thing that was evident, is that she comes from a great family of supportive parents, so when she puked after the race because of how scared she was, they were fine with it, and didn't make a big deal of it.

I won't get into the individual nature of training this age and what they should or shouldn't be doing, other than to say, unless the kid is able to sweat, intensity won't be fun because the energy system surrounding FOG fibres hasn't developed fully.

My twelve year old for example keeps up in training sessions with my 15 year olds. However, her volume is significantly reduced. I invited her on a long run a couple of Sundays ago and for her that was 38 minutes. (two laps of Point Pleasant Park a distance of just under 5 miles)
The pace was slow for a change thankfully, moreso for me.

The one major thing I got out of the Long Term Athlete Development module of my NCI course is that we are charged with a great deal of responsibility in looking after athletes. This is not news to the other coaches on the list. But it does reinforce the parental role that I feel like I've had over the last number of years.

The parents push, the coaches pull back. It seems backwards to me. My feeling on this is that I want them coming back for more. Sure, if you get a prodigy that is going to be the next Simon Whitfield, Sidney Crosby or Lucy Smith, it's hard to hold them back.

That's all I have.

[lucky13]

While we are on the topic, here is a great related article: www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/getArticle.cfm?id=2026

At grade 7, you actually have no idea what will happen to a runner when they get older. Anyone coaching kids may be coaching an Olympian, but you don't which one.

[coachc]

Thanks for posting Barrie and shedding a liitle light on this case. It's unfortunate that there are posters on TnF North who feel the need to trash talk and drag names through the mud of other coaches, parents and athletes ( I find it especially disconcerting when it involves young athletes) without knowing all the facts regarding said athletes, coaches , and parents.

On a side note my son always enjoyed your training sessions and talks when he was younger and doing triathlons, unfortunately you were unable to convince him to make triathlon his #1 sport but your enthusiasm and obvious concern for the athletes best interests did make a lasting impression on him.

[slamer]

Oct 27, 2009 20:04:37 GMT -5 coachbarrie said:

Kirsten's incredible desire to run/race, DID end up with her and her parents registering her for more races, in a shorter period of time in Mid Sept/early Oct than I (and most of the readers) believe is optimal for a young girl. The family are aware, that many talented kids in the past have over raced and trained for 2-5 years in their early teens and then were injured and gone from the sport completely. That is the last thing that Kirsten's family or I, want for her future.

No one here thinks this one week will be the end of her. But four races in one week for a professional would be too much, never mind a very young athlete.

What will matter more than this whole discussion is whether or not you categorically stop her parents from entering her in races whenever. Cause frankly talk is cheap.

I wish you luck.

[oldster]

Oct 27, 2009 21:22:02 GMT -5 coachc said:

Thanks for posting Barrie and shedding a liitle light on this case. It's unfortunate that there are posters on TnF North who feel the need to trash talk and drag names through the mud of other coaches, parents and athletes ( I find it especially disconcerting when it involves young athletes) without knowing all the facts regarding said athletes, coaches , and parents.

On a side note my son always enjoyed your training sessions and talks when he was younger and doing triathlons, unfortunately you were unable to convince him to make triathlon his #1 sport but your enthusiasm and obvious concern for the athletes best interests did make a lasting impression on him.

Coachc, the girl is 12 and ran 4 long races in a week. This is a "fact". What other "facts" could mitigate this? What facts does Barrie provide that mitigate this? He says he intends prevent what has happened to other similar prodigies from happening to this girl, yet somehow she ended up running in four races in a week (and you can bet she didn't enter and get to these races on her own.) As responsible coach and sensible parent, it is very easy to prevent this kind of thing: it's called saying "no", and it's the essence of both good youth coaching and responsible parenting. And why, BTW, do the parents and coaches of kids like this always think that the main issue is the "pushing" of kids? With talented and highly motivated kids like this all you have to do is "enable" them (i.e. say "yes" to them), and they will do all the damage themselves, because they're kids and by definition don't fully understand the consequences of their actions.

As for the "dragging through the mud" insinuation, I think making this sort of thing fodder for public discussion among people who have a long involvement in the sport (i.e. in a hardcore, specialist, forum like this) is actually a kind of public service to parents and coaches. It might at least give them pause to think. And whatever psychological damage that might result to particularly sensitive souls is probably outweighed by the chance that people might learn and avoid repeating obvious mistakes. (And, for the especially sensitive, my use of the word "morons" in this context was not directed specifically at anyone; it was a general statement regarding those who mishandle youth development in flagrant disregard for the relevant facts.)

[powerboy]

I hesitated to comment on this post but now will add two cents because of the Tri coach's comments. I coached this girl on and off last year (she came to my workouts designed for older girls and joined in.) I could not slow her down despite many efforts of explaining the importance and value of learning how to run at pace. I know that she and her father were disappointed if I sugggested that if the big girls were running 4x1k, she should run 3x800.
She is a very nice little girl and loves to run, but is far too intense. I think most of Oldster's comments will be borne out.
Perhaps doing the tri's affords a balance that doesn't exist in track, but I think Mr Shepley is dreaming if he thinks this family is all for a consevative approach to peak for 2024.

[pq]

Oct 28, 2009 11:09:43 GMT -5 oldster said:

Coachc, the girl is 12 and ran 4 long races in a week. This is a "fact". What other "facts" could mitigate this? What facts does Barrie provide that mitigate this? He says he intends prevent what has happened to other similar prodigies from happening to this girl, yet somehow she ended up running in four races in a week (and you can bet she didn't enter and get to these races on her own.) As responsible coach and sensible parent, it is very easy to prevent this kind of thing: it's called saying "no", and it's the essence of both good youth coaching and responsible parenting. And why, BTW, do the parents and coaches of kids like this always think that the main issue is the "pushing" of kids? With talented and highly motivated kids like this all you have to do is "enable" them (i.e. say "yes" to them), and they will do all the damage themselves, because they're kids and by definition don't fully understand the consequences of their actions.

As for the "dragging through the mud" insinuation, I think making this sort of thing fodder for public discussion among people who have a long involvement in the sport (i.e. in a hardcore, specialist, forum like this) is actually a kind of public service to parents and coaches. It might at least give them pause to think. And whatever psychological damage that might result to particularly sensitive souls is probably outweighed by the chance that people might learn and avoid repeating obvious mistakes. (And, for the especially sensitive, my use of the word "morons" in this context was not directed specifically at anyone; it was a general statement regarding those who mishandle youth development in flagrant disregard for the relevant facts.)

Don't hold back Steve... tell us what you really think!

Interesting discussion, with thoughtful contributions from both sides of the fence. It sure seems this is another case of parents living vicariously through the achievements of their talented child.

It will be interesting to follow progress over time and see whether the more balanced training load you might find in triathlon (as compared with serious running training on its own) will yield a longer "career" for this athlete.

As others have pointed out, however, four races in such a short time is not particularly responsible for anyone, let alone a young developing athlete.

Best of luck to her, and to Barrie in fighting the pressures that powerboy saw previously.

[pq]

Question for Barry if he checks back in.... (I don't necessarily expect him to answer it publicly)

Would you consider turfing an athlete like this if the parents (or athlete) wouldn't back off and accept a reasonable and responsible training and racing load?

I had asked a similar question several months back of the coaches on here... would you "fire" an athlete for always doing more/faster/longer than you'd suggested? Personally, I have very limited coaching experience, but I have turfed a couple of people for always running every workout harder than designed. The responses I got to the question last time suggested I would have been in a distinct minority, so maybe this is as good a place as any to pose the question again. So...?

[oldster]

Great question, pq. I don't think I'd "fire" an adult athlete, unless he/she was disrupting the workouts of others. I would "coach" the adult; but, if adults want to do stupid things in training, they've only themselves to answer to.

With kids, I would definitely start by trying to "fire" the parents-- i.e. get them to back off and let me make the coaching decisions. If it came to it, though, I would stop working with a kid like this in an instant if I didn't get cooperation from his/her parents. I'd feel very badly for the kid, but I would not allow this crap to go on consistently-- at least not on my watch.

Note to Barrie: If you can't control these parents, you should think hard about your association with this athlete. In the longer term, being associated with this kind of thing can be very bad for one's reputation as a coach (and you have a very good one to protect).

[pq]

Oct 28, 2009 13:07:13 GMT -5 oldster said:

I don't think I'd "fire" an adult athlete, unless he/she was disrupting the workouts of others. I would "coach" the adult; but, if adults want to do stupid things in training, they've only themselves to answer to.

In my case, I "coach" a very small group of adults on an individual basis, and I do it for free. The only thing I get out of it is the satisfaction of seeing them improve, and so if I know someone is putting themselves on a path to burnout, injury or stagnation, and I can't nudge thm back on course, my interest in continuing to spend time thinking about their training and assigning workouts diminishes. That's been my rationale for ditching a couple of people, which maybe doesn't apply to a lot of other people. Or maybe I'm wired differently.

Sorry for the tangent... back to discussing responsible youth training...

[huskies16]

i raced a 11 year old girl at the kinetico 5k run in caledon whose 5k P.B is 17:30

[ronb]

No comment on the individual situation, as mentioned previously.
As for the general dialogue, "we" know much less than we think we do on the various issues surrounding this topic.
Highly theoretical athlete development models do not impress me at all.... I can immediately name many of our top runners whose development was far removed from "the model". And of course some will say those are the exceptions, and I would respond, yes, that is exactly the point.... Somewhere along the line, we should realize that those who may have what it takes to get near the very top of the World, often do not follow the usual theoretically-based guidelines....And then what do we know, and what do we do?

[oldster]

Oct 28, 2009 19:12:35 GMT -5 ronb said:

No comment on the individual situation, as mentioned previously.
As for the general dialogue, "we" know much less than we think we do on the various issues surrounding this topic.
Highly theoretical athlete development models do not impress me at all.... I can immediately name many of our top runners whose development was far removed from "the model". And of course some will say those are the exceptions, and I would respond, yes, that is exactly the point.... Somewhere along the line, we should realize that those who may have what it takes to get near the very top of the World, often do not follow the usual theoretically-based guidelines....And then what do we know, and what do we do?

Fair enough, Ron, but by the time we find out a kid is NOT one of these exceptions to the rule, a lot of damage may have been done-- damage that may prove very difficult to undo. The question is: what are the risks of having this girl follow a more conservative approach in her developing years versus the risk of letting her race wherever and whenever she likes at age 12? With a conservative approach, she's still going to win races and have fun, just less often. And if she's not allowed to race as much as she likes at 12, is she going to quit, or begin to hate running? I doubt it.

And let's be clear: This is likely not a case of some visionary attempting a to develop a revolutionary new approach to youth development. If there's any new thinking going on here at all, it's being done by Barrie, and even he didn't sign off on the four races in a week thing. We have all seen this movie many times before and we know how it is likely to end. And, we don't need any fancy theoretical models to tell us; simple probabilities will do.

[ronb]

Hey Steve,
I knew we would "lock horns" on this topic, sooner or later.... I will try and present my opinions on this soon - I just need a bit more time...

[ebenjamin]

What great discussion! Pushing young stars is not the issue. Most of the kids who turn heads at around age 10-12 do so mainly because of their internal motivation. Many would race every day if they could. Four races in a week is way too much for a girl running such quality times at a young age. I'm repeating here: it is up to the parents and coach to say no. I don't care how much she loves it, they say no to plenty of other things she wants to do, because they know what's best for her. They need to apply that thinking to her running as well. I'm willing to bet the coaches/parents of prodigies-turned-nothing thought they were doing the right thing too. Ultimately, I guess I'll just keep my fingers crossed that it works for this young girl. Best of luck to her.

[Desy]

I remember when Stephanie Smith was racing and racing and asked my coach at the time, is she racing too much? His response was "well they said the same thing about Kevin Sullivan"

Is there a difference between genders?

Maybe she should take up soccer or another sport in the winter to give her body and mind a break? But she still will be keeping fit and running if she did play something like soccer.

[pq]

I don't really have a strong opinion about (or experience with) youth training one way or another, but have followed this particular debate/discussion with interest over the past few years. My only opinion on the specific topic of this thread is that 4 "long" races in about a week seems irresponsible for a young developing athlete.

I have a couple of questions for those who DO have opinions and experience in the broader topic of youth development for long distance running.

First, is the rate of burnout among young prodigies who seem to be overraced and overspecialized demonstrably higher than it is for athletes who specialize in distance running later in life, when their bodies are more mature and more ready to survive the demands of heavy specialized distance training?

Second, among our current and past top level distance runners, would a higher proportion of them have specialized relatively early, or relatively later?

[nscoach67]

Oct 29, 2009 9:50:54 GMT -5 Desy said:

Is there a difference between genders?

Maybe she should take up soccer or another sport in the winter to give her body and mind a break? But she still will be keeping fit and running if she did play something like soccer.

There is a difference between the genders, having to do with peak height velocity and when they hit it. Early maturers for females are around this age, boys about a year older.

We've all seen it, when the success is before (in general) the age of 16 in both genders it's because of this earlier maturation. Once their peers catch up, they lose interest because they are no longer winning.

Echoing the statements before, a lot of responsibility on the shoulders of the parental units and the coaches.

[nscoach67]

Oct 29, 2009 10:08:37 GMT -5 pq said:

First, is the rate of burnout among young prodigies who seem to be overraced and overspecialized demonstrably higher than it is for athletes who specialize in distance running later in life, when their bodies are more mature and more ready to survive the demands of heavy specialized distance training?

Second, among our current and past top level distance runners, would a higher proportion of them have specialized relatively early, or relatively later?

I would say that there is a drop off of all athletes after grade 6, 9, 12 and university because of lack of things to keep their interest, and lack of effective programs to do the same.

If you look at the triathletes that are at the top, you would find that they were swimmers when they were young, or bikers, etc, not triathletes. There's too much repetitive strain to deal with for growing bodies.

[oldster]

Ron, bring it on! I'll be very interested to hear your views on this, since you've still been around the block a few more times than I have.

And, good luck indeed to these kids-- they will need lots of it. Considering how hard it is to keep talented kids in this sport, it is fantastic when one comes along who really seems to love it. However, we have to be careful that what kids really love is running, and not just winning races and impressing adults; because, even for the best, that will come to an end pretty suddenly-- i.e. as soon as all the other kids start training at the same level. These apparent prodigies need to know that they may not really be much more talented (if at all) than other kids their age; the vast majority of 12 year olds, after all, have not yet begun to test themselves, or may simply be less physically precocious. This is yet one more reason to counsel patience in young runners. Running is NOT like hockey, gymnastics or swimming, where the early prodigies much more often become adult stars. This reality seems lost on many parents of young runners, who have little or no experience with running, yet often lots with these other kid's sports. Parents can be forgiven for thinking that little johnny or joanie will do better by getting a leg up on the other kids through intense early training and racing, but they need to be educated nonetheless.

And, Desy, Kevin can speak for himself on this (in fact, he has on another similar thread), but he did not race a ton as a kid, nor did he do a ton of mileage. He said he was a big kid who did very intense track sessions, but who continued to play other sports till his mid-teens. Stephanie Smith was a whole different thing. (And, BTW, before anyone suggests that we are making baseless assumptions about what happened to this girl, it's enough to know that she raced dozens of times, year round, on roads, track and trail, from the age of at least 11. Whatever the eventual cause of her rapid and precipitous decline in performance, this kind of racing schedule cannot have helped matters. Not even Haile Gebresellasie could get away with this kind of racing schedule for more than a few months. What chance would a child have?). But, your question about the genders is a good one. I've long believed that the prepubescent girl's often ideal built for distance running (small and very light), combined with girls' general tendency towards greater emotional maturity at younger ages, and consequently greater sense of performance duty vis a vis adult expectations, makes them idea candidates for what we might call the "Stephanie Smith Syndrome" (although there are probably a 100s other candidates for this name within Canada alone over the past 30 years). Boys (or at least North American boys), are, I think, are just more difficult in general to convince to spend all of their time running for the sake of running. Some of what I'm referring to is also part of the explanation for why more girls than boys, and more girl runners in particular, suffer from eating disorders.

And, pq, there is very little solid data on this, but, there is a lot of evidence that super-prodigies like Stephanie Smith (and a group of old-timers could sit and list the names of dozens of other kids like her) have a drop out rate at least as high as the overall average for kids. From this, you could then say: so that means that their early experience didn't really hurt them more than other non-running related factors hurt the average kid's chances of going on (i.e. Bruce D.'s standard reply). However, wouldn't we expect kids who were bona fide age-group running stars and record breakers to have a much HIGHER than average adult success rate, simply because of their early success? And, still, the anecdotal evidence alone should be sufficient to ward off others from trying repeat the Stephanie Smith experiment, particularly when there are tons of other examples of kids getting to the top after very late starts and casual age group involvement. There is, in other words, very little to gain and possibly much to lose, from going the early training/hard racing route. But then, reason is of little value when the emotions of over-involved parents are concerned, or so I have discovered.