Canadian Nationals Cross Country 2004

[December 4 2004]

Canadian Nationals Cross Country is on December 4, 2004. I had always assumed that it was held the same weekend of the American Thanksgiving (Thursday, November 25 this year) so that our Canadian athletes would have more travel time to return to compete for their track clubs.
The following is an e-mail from Martin Goulet, Athletics Canada detailing the reasons for this year's date.
Do others agree with the reasons? His e-mail address is at the end of this if you would like to voice an opinion.



"We are following the current pattern of dates for our National Cross Country Championships since 2001.

Early that year a decision was made to have this meet either the 5th Saturday of November (when the month of November for a given year has five Saturdays) or the first Saturday of December. This decision has been taken for several reasons:



1. Lengthen the cross country season for our domestic program (the season in Canada is very short – especially when compared with the European nations)



2. Encourage the clubs to start the indoor track season as late as possible thus encourage the coaches to have a longer general preparation period into the yearly training cycle of their distance runners



3. Avoid having NCAA athletes to compete into two Championships cross country race within less than one week (one race Monday and then the next one five days later)



4. Avoid conflict with Canada’s International Commitment (more specifically here with the Japanese Federation staging around September 23rd every year the Chiba Ekiden)



5. Have a better alignment with the International Cross Country Program





In the year 2000 I have consulted with our best distance coaches from Coast to Coast and almost unanimously the suggestion to go one week later was supported.


Note: given the staging of the 2005 Jeux de la Francophonie on December 7-17 in Niger we may exceptionally change the current scheduled date of the 2005 National Cross Country Championships. Normally it should be December 3rd (as mentioned so far) and we may go November 26th. The decision has not been taken yet. "





Sincerely,



Martin Goulet

Director, Endurance Programs / Direction Technique Nationale - épreuves d'endurance
Athletics Canada / Athlétisme Canada

Email / courriel: [e-mail]

Bureau de Montréal / Montreal's office
Phone/Tel: [phone] x3418
Fax: [phone]

[Some guy]

That actually sounds pretty smart to me, except that now it might interfere with exams for university students....

[this guy]

its the weekend jsut before exams

[ncaa]

this is good for NCAA athletes as it gives them more rest, so hopefully more will show up this year. Maybe some more of the NCAA alumni will show up too, oh no they won't I forgot that most quit running at the end of their education.

side note: Canadians....stop going to crappy NCAA schools

[a miler]

Why wouldn't they go to the NCAA? The competition in the US is far and away better than the CIS.

[because]

year after year, ppl who have gone to the NCAA come back to Canada. Most of the ppl who have gone south and actually stayed, didn't want to stay. The only reason they stayed was because they couldn't get into a canadian school, or thought they couldn't afford it.

The higher level of competition is only of benefit to very few of the Canadians who go south. Alot of them wouldn't even make the top 7 at Windsor or Guelph for XC and many would not qualify for the CIS track championships in the distance events. And there are certainly fast guys to train with in the CIS with the likes of reid and Cantin training at guelph and mackenzie at windsor, not to mention the west coast guys I know nothing about...

Also, year after year the CIS grads beat the NCAA grads at national XC.
When you look at most national teams, certainly for senior XC, they are filled with runners who are from the CIS system.

another also: If you go to school at timbucktoo st, your degree isn't allways recognised when you return to Canada. For example, I have heard an anecdote fo someone going to Memphis, then having to complete additional courses once returning to Canada inorder to enter teachers college and others have transferred from ncaa to cis without all of their credits transferring.

[NCAA]

You know you're right a degree in the states isn't close to a degree from...let's say windsor....small crappy US school aside, NCAA is higher calibre and on average a better education if you want it...if you want a lot of good competition you got to head south...sorry to burste your bubble but obviously most of you posters went to a canadian school and are trying to defend yourself...if CIS is so good then why do almost all the good athletes continue to go to the states...why don't we look at the olympic team and see who went to the US and who stayed in Canada.

[GreekMystique]

I agree and disagree with some of these comments.

As a former NCAA guy myself I have found out first hand that some of the things that occur while competing south do suck... while others are beneficial.


1) To overlook the fact that a full scholarship in some cases is the only way and individual can afford to go to school shouldn't occur. I know some people think grabbing OSAP and going $30,000 in debt isn't a major deal but for some people it isn't an option. Hence it makes financial sense to go to the states.

2) Competition and travel is like no other (I am guessing with most top D1 programs) but it does come at a price. You are over raced almost constantly during the year. In most cases you will see a guy/girl have to run 5-6 times in the Fall at serious races and then start racing almost every weekend between mid-Jan and end of May. I believe this leads to burn out (mentally) in many runners as well as injuries because the body is never able to fully recover.

3) Things like National XC, Olympic Trials, World XC, etc ... are never really allowed or possible if you head south because it means you have to either add on another race (which in some cases pushes the whole burn-out/injury problem) or you have to go against the will of your coach who is dishing out your money to run something that is not part of the schools schedule. It isn't as if many NCAA guys don't want to come home and compete at their best but they are just never given the chance.

4) Physiotherapy is awesome!! You get un-parallel support with physio and if needed surgery. I am one to know this because I had surgery in '03. The support and physio I received were top class and definately a major advantage in quick recovery.

blah blah blah.... I could go on forever. I personally like both the CIS and NCAA for different reasons. I do believe that if you have the $$$ the CIS in the end could develop better athletes because the coaching and training is more based on doing better as an athlete and not scoring points as a team.

The major problem is that alot of kids head south because University is ridiculously expensive. As for guys quitting after college from the US... how many CIS guys quit after graduating as well? I am not sure what the % is but I highly doubt that there is a major difference in the drop ratio. Many guys after racing down south are tired and maybe even hurting after 4 ... usually 5 years of constant pounding and racing. But look at the positives... Cantin, Catton, Thorson, etc... these are all former NCAA athletes jumping back into training and pursuing their personal goals. Although I think you will always have problems with athletes quitting, etc... until changes occur at home (like these ridiculous COS standards, no 4km XC trials, pitiful carding support, etc) I think the problem or atleast the situation will remain the same.

I recommend that everyone just logs their miles and is proud of the people like Sully, Perdita, etc who will represent us at the upcoming Olympics. There is no sense dwelling on who or who has not quit from the CIS and NCAA... because in the end... they have quit... and most of the time... it was their own personal decision.

[Cal]

I tend to agree with the last post. The benefits and experience in the NCAA highly out-weigh those of the CIS. However, I do believe that the CIS is geared towards a lengthier career in the sport. The benefits of free education, nice travel, free gear, medical, etc are are a mere dream for that of a CIS runner. In terms of who comes home and competes better, I think Nat XC is a poor example, based upon how few NC athletes come home and race or are ready to race when they arrive back home after a 10k the monday before. Most if not all the CIS boys race Nats, but look at the likes of Morrison, Sullivan who did not return, or in previous years Kerr, Kaley, etc.
Also look at how Nate Brannen ran last year at Nats. He ran spectacular at NCs and you think had he not ran the Monday before he wouldn't have been quite a few spots higher. That's a pretty good run for a 800/miler. I know Bairu won the race easily, but I think we would all agree Nate and Simon are different runners. I just think comparing Nat XC is a poor example.
The meet schedule in the NCAA is a double-edged sword, you get to race at the best meets, but you also might race too often. As a CIS athlete, unless you are benefiting from AC like Speed River (I think) or some of the other High Performance centres, you would have to pay out of pocket to get to Mt. Sac, Stanford, etc.
Finally, the burnout rate overall would probably be pretty even, but the NCAA athletes appear to lose more of their higher quality athletes. It could be the over-racing or training (3 seasons), or the fact that life gets in the way. Remember it is just running.
As for the education, it does not matter if you go to school in Canada or the US; you can obtain an education anywhere. It depends upon what type of student the athlete chooses to be while attending school.

[NCAA vs CIS]

I felt the need to respond to this. I disagree and think that CIS is more geared towards getting team points as opposed to the NCAA. At the NCAA the top talent is so good that one individual can not win 4 or 5 events. So a top individual may be forced to run 2 races at every meet all year but he is not forced to run 5 races within 24hours like in the CIS.
Look at the CIS last year.
I will give you plenty of examples of athletes who were used in mulitple events in the last few years CIS and regional(OUA, CanWest, frenchprovince, and AUAA). None of these athletes would have done more than 1or 2 events if they were in the NCAA.
Jessica Zelinka from Calgary, that Ryan guy from Windsor, Jamie Nelson from Windsor, Emery Tuplin from Saskatchewan, Ibraham Mette and Martin Grenier from Vert et Or, Kate Vermuelen from Western, Alexandre Marchant from Vert et Or, and many more. None of these people would run 5 events at the NCAA championships or divisional championships.

Kate Vermuelen came from the NCAA. At CIS she ran 1500, 1000, 4x8, 4x4, and I can't remember it was either 600 or 3K..at NCAA she would run the mile, and distance medley thats it.

CIS is notorious for over working there athletes and stunted development. There are certain teams that do not overuse athletes, however this is because they have yet to compete for a national championship. If they were to get a little closer, then I guarantee we would start to see certain teams adding another event to there stars weekend.

The only difference from the NCAA and the CIS is that in the CIS an athlete can say no to his coach and refuse to take on those extra events. Of course one of 2 scenarios would follow. The coach could say the athlete is not a team player and not bring him to the meet OR he can compete and face 28 unhappy teammates who blame him for not winning a national championship.

[Cal]

I see your point, but I believe that one weekend or racing is totally different than doubling every weekend or racing 15 more times before the summer season begins. NCAA athletes almost always triple at conference. Look at the Hogs for examples (Cragg, Alkin, etc). The level of competition is so much higher at that level as well (Gabe Jennings ran 3 sub 4:00 miles indoors in 27hrs). I have also witnessed a female athlete run 4 X 1, 4 X 4, 100H, 100m, 400H, and LJ. Joey Woody once ran the following: 4 X 4, 4 X 1, 400m, 400H in 2hrs. And he still competes today. The CIS does not have the continual pressures to perform, the standards are not near as difficult, there are only 2 seasons, and the competition now with Regionals in track is not near as tough.
Just to make some additional points

[Seriously]

How dumb is this post....first of all saying CIS athletes don't get burned out and have longer careers is crazy....Like take a look at the Olympic team and the top ranked Canadians in pretty much every single event and they all went to the states...there is better coaching and better facilities down in the US.

[US]

Man, the CIS sounds awesom...little competition, less running, and worse training....I can't believe more students don't come up here from the states to prolong their careers.

[Guest]

Reid Coolseat.

qed

[coldneck]

thats Coolsaet, a before the e. I guess i"ll throw in my two cents then...

look, most of the talent in Canada goes down south so obviously those athletes are going to have better results later on.

In my opinion guys like Kurt Benniger, Mike Woods, McKessok, Brannen and other guys/girls on that level are better off in the NCAA system as long as they pick a school with good eduaction and coaching (which they usually do). They simply need that level of competition which the NCAA provides. And there are plenty of coaches that look out for the athletes' post-collegiate career. Warhurst red-shirting Brannen and Willis, Marcus O'Sullivan at Villanova and Treacy at Providence are good examples.

I think many people going down to the states have not made the best choice because they aren't going to schools with education or coaching at the same level as many schools in the CIS. The coaches seem to train the athletes at a high level so they will perform at that level as quickly as possible, they seem to take more risks with the athletes than in the CIS.

I was recently talking to Mike McGrath and Galen Rupp about not going through the NCAA system and I think they made the right choice. They told me that the coaches in the NCAA system do not have the same long term goals as them. They want to be factors at the Olympics and do well on the international stage. Webb made the right move by leaving that system.

one more thing, the physiotherapy at Guelph was/is great.

[madm]

do you speedriver guys have a website.

[NCAA vs CIS]

Replying to the post about how CIS athletes are there for the team points more than the NCAA athletes. There is only one problem with this argument, the CIS athletes CHOOSE to run all the events they do, they are not forced by their school or coach. How many NCAA athletes are given the chance to choose how many events they want to run or not to run.

[December 4 2004]

oh man, this is great!!

what started as a thread about the nationals cross country date has turned into a very lively discussion on the NCAA vs CIS or is it, CIS vs NCAA?

frankly, this is so much more interesting than the original topic

by the way, what do people think of the cross country date?

;D

[cross date]

is good

[Matt Mc]

Great post. I love how this thread comes up every year.

First of all, I think having Nat XC a week later is a great idea. Allowing the Ekiden and NCAA XC runners an extra week of recovery will hopefully improve the quality of the field.

As for the continual NC vs CIS debate, I think that careful examination of the Olympic roster will reveal that athletes from many different situations have made the team and there is no one definite formula for success. There are athletes like Kevin Sullivan, Malindi Elmore and Courtenay Babcock who went to NCAA schools and thrive post-collegiately. Others, like Mondor, Berret, and Grenier stayed at Canadian schools. Still more, such as Macrozinaris, Reed, Tadili and Cummins (I think) have stayed in Canada to train full time.

I think it is important for all young athletes to consider all of their options and decide what is important for them. Clearly, for some very talented runners like McGrath, Rupp, Webb, Reed, Tadili etc, running full time may be a feasible option financially.

Others might want the notoriety and competition offered by NCAA schools. As we all know, with literally thousands of universities in the US, there is certainly a wide range of academic and athletic prowess. Unfortunately, some young athletes are so determined to go to the US on Scholarship, that they are blind to the faults of the programs they are committing to.

Another option is to stay in Canada. There is certainly similar diversity in the CIS, but on a smaller scale. Many top end programs have excellent coaching and the capability to get athletes to the meets they need to. Several CIS schools, (especially in Alberta) have decent scholarship money for upper year athletes. I know that U of T has 10 (or more) $2500-3000 scholarships for XC and track athletes, and many of the Canwest schools have comprable or better funds.

Some schools such as Guelph, Windsor, Toronto and Victoria through partnerships with university affiliated track clubs provide year round coaching and competitive opportunities, as well as strong groups of post-collegiate athletes to train with.

Other smaller programs, such as St FX, have provided athletes such as Eric Gillis with a positive environment in which he has obviously thrived.

It is easy to deride the CIS by comparing the performances of current university athletes on either side of the border. Clearly, the top athletes go South year in and year out and should produce the top times during university, thus absolute times are not really a valid comparison. Relative improvement during and after university should be the measure of a program's success. Of course, this would measure success on only one playing field-- the track, and not in life!

The bottom line is that there are many good (and bad) options out there on both sides of the border. Ask current and former athletes about the programs you are considering. Think about what you want to do job-wise after university. Sometimes, it is not as easy as one might think to return to Canada with certain types of degrees. Make an informed decision.

Matt

[Whatever]

Kate Vermuelen went to the states and now she is in playboy..how much more succesful can an NCAA athlete be?

Kate for porn queen!!

I mean Prom queen

[Matt Mc]

However, one might argue that Ms V's formative years were her last few at North America's #1 school for beatiful women (according to Leterman's top 10 list)-- Western!

Matt

[going south]

yes, this thread is excellent

I am heading south for school and cross country/track and am very excited about the opportunity

i appreciate the pros and cons voiced by all and will keep an open mind

Canada has excellent universities and colleges but I was not accepted at the ones I wanted but have found a school in the states with excellent academics and a good sports program (their athletes haven't burned out)

[Burnt]

Is it Tennessee-Chattanooga, or Campbell's?

[or]

maybe High Point

[coolseat]

I actually never saw the physio room at UBC but I guess that's cause I was never injured!!!!!!!

[coldneck]

HA, good one Milen

I still don't get why I would go to UBC for physio?

[Chris Moulton]

I think it is a great idea to move the meet back a week. Hopefully some coaches will learn to put less of an emphasis on indoors, with the exception of CIS and NCAA athletes, I think indoors should be mainly used as a base building phase and a futher cross country racing phase for our senior athletes much like the europeans. Also hopefully this will allow the guys who go to Ekiden a better chance to recover. I do however believe although their hope was to give NCAA runners a better chance to recover the change will likely result in less NCAA runners competing since it is not the weekend of yankee thanksgiving.

[american guy]

Being an american i find that a lot of canadians are going to those crappy schools in North Carolina like High Point, Liberty, Campbel..i mean i have never even heard of them and i'm an American. Before you go please research the school. And if anyone tries to tell you Arkansas is a good academic school don't believe them.

[Bomba]

...how about actually following the european season and having XC's in say feb......IMHO this allows for a far better buildup and makes more sense froma purely training method (see correct and not rushed as often occurs when athletes try to get ready for XC races in Oct/Nov)...also means that the team sent is ready to roll at Wlds....only huge negative is money for those who aren't on the funded teams....question is will that (funding) change when they send only a long course team in a couple of years...