Post by Chris Moulton on Mar 26, 2004 12:30:04 GMT -5
CISMAN [guest]
Talent Staying North Posted 2-4-2003 02:16
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As we all know the allure of scholarships drives most of the talented highschoolers down south, but sometimes like in the case of cober and young, gifted highschoolers choose to fork over the dough in order to get a good education and stay closer to home. Just wondering if any talents are planning on staying in canada and what schools they are looking at.
CISFAN [guest]
Staying in Canada Posted 2-4-2003 03:56
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From an Ontario perspective...
Making a decision about staying north may soon
become a thing of the past. The double cohort's
passing means that the extra year of high school
eligibility that Ontario students have had will no
longer exist to help these students compete with
incoming US freshmen.
The top (OFSAA medalist) athletes will of course
still have a good shot at getting a decent
scholarship at a good program, but I suspect that
even these will be fewer and farther between.
Given the fact that most smaller D1 and D2
schools which might be intetested in the 2nd tier of
Canadian athletes available will not be offering
anything close to full rides, future Ontario
graduates would have to seriously consider why
they wish to go south.
Finally, given the large numbers of Canadian
athletes (mostly males) who have gone south and
not really progressed to their potential, or even
worse, become injured because of the ridiculously
high mileage still espoused by many US
programs, one shouldn't be surprised that many
gifted (and intelligent) high schoolers are forking
over their 55 cent loonies to stay north...and
compete in our own exciting National
Championships. (if they're good enough to qualify!)
trackie [guest]
going south Posted 2-4-2003 16:52
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont really agree with all the above says. Even with the double cohort still a bunch of the girls and guys in my club are getting phone calls and letters constanly from schools in the states that would offer a full ride.
Some of the girls are OFSAA medallist, but I good bunch of them aren't and they are still getting all the phone calls and offers. I think that us, Ontarians can still recieve scholarships and keep up with the American freshman. Yes, the extra year would help, but I think its fair to say that bunch of the runners from Ontario will still be getting the full ride paid for.
curious [guest]
CISFAN Posted 2-4-2003 22:30
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the ridiculoulsy (sp)high mileage you talk about? 80 90 100 miles a week? Common quit putting forth cliches of the big bad US system and that they ruin our young talent.
I'll tell you this the top guys anywhere are runnning 100 plus miles every week most running much more than that.
CISFAN I bet you run 50 miles a week and run what like 14:50 5000's and wonder why you arn't faster. Mileage and intensity are needed. Quit babying yourself and take a chance to run fast. Run the mileage
intrepid
Who runs 100 mile weeks Posted 2-4-2003 22:47
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many high school athletes run 100 mile weeks? I bet none.
USrunna [guest]
mileage Posted 2-4-2003 23:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This has to be one of the most overly talked about topics, so I might as well throw in my two cents:
- There are bad coaches everywhere....in the U.S. and Canada. Don't use a few isolated horror stories to make your case.
- Those that are offered a significant scholarship to run in the U.S., usually accept it (lets say 99.9% of the time b/c i know someone will again use an isolated example). I don't care what anyone says, if you have a chance for a free or cheaper education, you take it. My brother came out of university with $30k in debt. I wont have any.
- Also, CIS is NOT better than NCAA. Undeniably, there are a few great runners in CIS who would do quite well in the NCAA but the overall depth and competitiveness just isnt there.
You can make yourself believe what you want...I'm sure as hell not going to convince you otherwise. But if you go to the right school in the U.S., not even necesarily the best or biggest, your training will far exceed anything you get in most Canadian universities (excluding the elite CIS schools like Guelph).
Moulton
scholarships and whatnot Posted 2-5-2003 00:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to agree with the guy who said that less people will be going to the states this year and future years. Their is a finite number of scholarships in the US each however this year there are 1.5 times the number of atheletes competing for those scholarships thus some athletes say a 4:02-4:05 (1500 runner) will not be getting the kind of offers he would normally receive. These athletes will generally be the grade 12 runners. In the future atheletes will not have the PBs to be able to obtain as many offers, remember that most offers are made based on the summer befores performances, thus most atheletes get their offers from their times in grade 12, now those times will be from grade 11 therefore someone who may run say 8;40 in the summer of grade 12 will not receive the types of offers as before because his PB with which he can attract offers will theoretically be slower for the purpose of this argument say 8:55.
There are few schools who will give big rides out to 9:30 2 milers when they can find a 9:30 type who is instate (assuming this is a public university) and give him whatever he needs to get a large ride in addition to his hope grant or whatever that states grant are, also since most smaller D1 schools are on limited budgets it is much cheaper for them to recruit in state guys in fact it is often cheaper to get two instate 4:25 milers then one out of state guy. In the past if that out of state guy (read ontario runner) was a 4:15 miler they might do it but now if he is only a 4:20 miler they are more likely to go with the two in-state guys.
All that being said I think the question was who is staying in Canada, the answer is it is probably to early for most people to know even where they have been accept. I know here at Guelph accpetances won't be mailed out until at least March. Although if you have 3 OACs over 85 you are guranteed admission.
curious [guest]
Intrepid Posted 2-5-2003 00:26
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nice work buddy. Not sure how many NCAA programs that are accused of running absurd amounts of mileage are made up of high school kids. Yes at one time they were high school kids but when they step to the NCAA they are now college kids and it is a new world. Why don't you look at Tom McArdles training diary look at the milaeage there. Look at the PR's.
CISFAN [guest]
I think I hit a nerve Posted 2-5-2003 01:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think what intrepid was trying to say, if I may be so
bold, was that many freshmen who go south on
scholarship end up doing too much too soon.
Most senior high schoolers here are lucky if they
get anywhere near 100 km/week, let alone 100
miles. Any coach worth his or her salt knows the
physiological dangers of increasing mileage too
much too soon. Lots of kids who go down there fall
into the trap; then they get hurt. That doesn't
happen as much here. I'm convinced of that.
My message seems to have been misinterpreted
as a condemnation of the US college system. It is
nothing of the sort! It was merely in response to the
question of "who's staying?"
I think our Ontario university sytstem will be a
winner in the long run (pardon the pun) because of
the double cohort. The facts are quite plain that
Grade 12 distance runners (especially males)
better be prepared to up the ante if they want to get
a decent scholarship offer. Again, I stress the word
"decent". There are programs and then there are
PROGRAMS.
Why would you pay equivalent US dollars for a
program which is perhaps inferior by Canadian
standards?
I take offence at the comment that US athletic
programs are "better" than what we have here. Of
course, some are. But the vast majority are not.
Most of the schools over there have lots of walk on
, non-scholarship athletes who can't hold a candle
to the athletes who are part of our top 10 CIS
schools.
CI's compared to NCAA's? A case of apples
versus oranges. Of course the NCAA
Championships are a spectacular event. But what
percentage of Canadians on scholarship ever get
to go to the "big show" ? I'm sure it's very low.
The majority of kids who "go south" are not ever
going to become elite athletes. Just like the
majority of kids playing Junior A are never going to
make it to the pros. Using the NCAA
Championships as a rationale for going to the
States is immaterial for most of the athletes who
will go there....at least as far as distance runners
are concerned.
Now if you're a thrower, it's a whole other ball
game.
Thinking about staying in Canada? Good. Make
sure you check out your options. If the States is
better for you and it's not just a "get out of town"
thing, then go for that. But at least make informed
decisions.
Talent Staying North Posted 2-4-2003 02:16
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As we all know the allure of scholarships drives most of the talented highschoolers down south, but sometimes like in the case of cober and young, gifted highschoolers choose to fork over the dough in order to get a good education and stay closer to home. Just wondering if any talents are planning on staying in canada and what schools they are looking at.
CISFAN [guest]
Staying in Canada Posted 2-4-2003 03:56
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From an Ontario perspective...
Making a decision about staying north may soon
become a thing of the past. The double cohort's
passing means that the extra year of high school
eligibility that Ontario students have had will no
longer exist to help these students compete with
incoming US freshmen.
The top (OFSAA medalist) athletes will of course
still have a good shot at getting a decent
scholarship at a good program, but I suspect that
even these will be fewer and farther between.
Given the fact that most smaller D1 and D2
schools which might be intetested in the 2nd tier of
Canadian athletes available will not be offering
anything close to full rides, future Ontario
graduates would have to seriously consider why
they wish to go south.
Finally, given the large numbers of Canadian
athletes (mostly males) who have gone south and
not really progressed to their potential, or even
worse, become injured because of the ridiculously
high mileage still espoused by many US
programs, one shouldn't be surprised that many
gifted (and intelligent) high schoolers are forking
over their 55 cent loonies to stay north...and
compete in our own exciting National
Championships. (if they're good enough to qualify!)
trackie [guest]
going south Posted 2-4-2003 16:52
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont really agree with all the above says. Even with the double cohort still a bunch of the girls and guys in my club are getting phone calls and letters constanly from schools in the states that would offer a full ride.
Some of the girls are OFSAA medallist, but I good bunch of them aren't and they are still getting all the phone calls and offers. I think that us, Ontarians can still recieve scholarships and keep up with the American freshman. Yes, the extra year would help, but I think its fair to say that bunch of the runners from Ontario will still be getting the full ride paid for.
curious [guest]
CISFAN Posted 2-4-2003 22:30
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the ridiculoulsy (sp)high mileage you talk about? 80 90 100 miles a week? Common quit putting forth cliches of the big bad US system and that they ruin our young talent.
I'll tell you this the top guys anywhere are runnning 100 plus miles every week most running much more than that.
CISFAN I bet you run 50 miles a week and run what like 14:50 5000's and wonder why you arn't faster. Mileage and intensity are needed. Quit babying yourself and take a chance to run fast. Run the mileage
intrepid
Who runs 100 mile weeks Posted 2-4-2003 22:47
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many high school athletes run 100 mile weeks? I bet none.
USrunna [guest]
mileage Posted 2-4-2003 23:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This has to be one of the most overly talked about topics, so I might as well throw in my two cents:
- There are bad coaches everywhere....in the U.S. and Canada. Don't use a few isolated horror stories to make your case.
- Those that are offered a significant scholarship to run in the U.S., usually accept it (lets say 99.9% of the time b/c i know someone will again use an isolated example). I don't care what anyone says, if you have a chance for a free or cheaper education, you take it. My brother came out of university with $30k in debt. I wont have any.
- Also, CIS is NOT better than NCAA. Undeniably, there are a few great runners in CIS who would do quite well in the NCAA but the overall depth and competitiveness just isnt there.
You can make yourself believe what you want...I'm sure as hell not going to convince you otherwise. But if you go to the right school in the U.S., not even necesarily the best or biggest, your training will far exceed anything you get in most Canadian universities (excluding the elite CIS schools like Guelph).
Moulton
scholarships and whatnot Posted 2-5-2003 00:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to agree with the guy who said that less people will be going to the states this year and future years. Their is a finite number of scholarships in the US each however this year there are 1.5 times the number of atheletes competing for those scholarships thus some athletes say a 4:02-4:05 (1500 runner) will not be getting the kind of offers he would normally receive. These athletes will generally be the grade 12 runners. In the future atheletes will not have the PBs to be able to obtain as many offers, remember that most offers are made based on the summer befores performances, thus most atheletes get their offers from their times in grade 12, now those times will be from grade 11 therefore someone who may run say 8;40 in the summer of grade 12 will not receive the types of offers as before because his PB with which he can attract offers will theoretically be slower for the purpose of this argument say 8:55.
There are few schools who will give big rides out to 9:30 2 milers when they can find a 9:30 type who is instate (assuming this is a public university) and give him whatever he needs to get a large ride in addition to his hope grant or whatever that states grant are, also since most smaller D1 schools are on limited budgets it is much cheaper for them to recruit in state guys in fact it is often cheaper to get two instate 4:25 milers then one out of state guy. In the past if that out of state guy (read ontario runner) was a 4:15 miler they might do it but now if he is only a 4:20 miler they are more likely to go with the two in-state guys.
All that being said I think the question was who is staying in Canada, the answer is it is probably to early for most people to know even where they have been accept. I know here at Guelph accpetances won't be mailed out until at least March. Although if you have 3 OACs over 85 you are guranteed admission.
curious [guest]
Intrepid Posted 2-5-2003 00:26
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nice work buddy. Not sure how many NCAA programs that are accused of running absurd amounts of mileage are made up of high school kids. Yes at one time they were high school kids but when they step to the NCAA they are now college kids and it is a new world. Why don't you look at Tom McArdles training diary look at the milaeage there. Look at the PR's.
CISFAN [guest]
I think I hit a nerve Posted 2-5-2003 01:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think what intrepid was trying to say, if I may be so
bold, was that many freshmen who go south on
scholarship end up doing too much too soon.
Most senior high schoolers here are lucky if they
get anywhere near 100 km/week, let alone 100
miles. Any coach worth his or her salt knows the
physiological dangers of increasing mileage too
much too soon. Lots of kids who go down there fall
into the trap; then they get hurt. That doesn't
happen as much here. I'm convinced of that.
My message seems to have been misinterpreted
as a condemnation of the US college system. It is
nothing of the sort! It was merely in response to the
question of "who's staying?"
I think our Ontario university sytstem will be a
winner in the long run (pardon the pun) because of
the double cohort. The facts are quite plain that
Grade 12 distance runners (especially males)
better be prepared to up the ante if they want to get
a decent scholarship offer. Again, I stress the word
"decent". There are programs and then there are
PROGRAMS.
Why would you pay equivalent US dollars for a
program which is perhaps inferior by Canadian
standards?
I take offence at the comment that US athletic
programs are "better" than what we have here. Of
course, some are. But the vast majority are not.
Most of the schools over there have lots of walk on
, non-scholarship athletes who can't hold a candle
to the athletes who are part of our top 10 CIS
schools.
CI's compared to NCAA's? A case of apples
versus oranges. Of course the NCAA
Championships are a spectacular event. But what
percentage of Canadians on scholarship ever get
to go to the "big show" ? I'm sure it's very low.
The majority of kids who "go south" are not ever
going to become elite athletes. Just like the
majority of kids playing Junior A are never going to
make it to the pros. Using the NCAA
Championships as a rationale for going to the
States is immaterial for most of the athletes who
will go there....at least as far as distance runners
are concerned.
Now if you're a thrower, it's a whole other ball
game.
Thinking about staying in Canada? Good. Make
sure you check out your options. If the States is
better for you and it's not just a "get out of town"
thing, then go for that. But at least make informed
decisions.