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Post by runningispain on Jan 13, 2010 20:40:06 GMT -5
Does anyone know about what is going to happen for the qualification for youth Olympics this summer? I know only 2 people go from north and South America (for distance events) but other than that I have no clue what’s happening. Is there going to be pan-am games for youths to see who comes top 2? Or just the best times go to Singapore? I don’t think Canada has taken a role at all.
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pmac
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Post by pmac on Jan 14, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
I don’t think Canada has taken a role at all. I know you're just interested in learning about the event, and unfortunately I can't answer your question for sure, but check out the literature here (found on Google): www.sailing.ca/files/cst/2010_Youth_Olympic_Selection.pdfAs a side note, I think it's great if Canada ignores this event, though the document suggests the COC won't. We already have World Youth, World Juniors, and Pam Am Jr's, and the list goes on. Who really cares if you win a youth Olympic gold at age 16? Come back in 10 years with one at the senior level and then talk to me. But perhaps I'm in the minority there. |
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Post by ottlcoach on Jan 14, 2010 12:37:29 GMT -5
What I believe I heard last year was AC would send a max four individuals.. the trials are taking place in May (i think in the US), but Canada's athletes would be selected based on performances at the 2009 Legion/Youth Nationals with the idea being to have athletes try to peak in march wasn't positive for their development. I am unaware of any division between events or gender... just four total spots i believe.
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Post by coachc on Jan 14, 2010 12:47:53 GMT -5
I don’t think Canada has taken a role at all. I know you're just interested in learning about the event, and unfortunately I can't answer your question for sure, but check out the literature here (found on Google): www.sailing.ca/files/cst/2010_Youth_Olympic_Selection.pdfAs a side note, I think it's great if Canada ignores this event, though the document suggests the COC won't. We already have World Youth, World Juniors, and Pam Am Jr's, and the list goes on. Who really cares if you win a youth Olympic gold at age 16? Come back in 10 years with one at the senior level and then talk to me. But perhaps I'm in the minority there. The athlete that makes it does, their parents, family, training partners, coach, club, competitors, the local track and sports community, their local community in general, their school, teachers, the media ( if notified). Lots of people care and it can be a life changing experience for those that make it. and sometimes for those around the athlete ( if they can do it then maybe I can to). Every sport needs stepping stones (for both for the average runners as well as the best ) to encourage them to continue to strive for greater heights and sometimes these competitions provide that as well as an eye opener to what goes on elsewhere in our world. If its a global competition, Canada should be a part of it. I know some on this board relate everything to becoming a world class runner in their late 20s but very few will ever get there. For most it's not about that. It's about seeing what they can do now and if they do well, have fun and enjoy it they just might keep at it while others quit. |
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Post by oldster on Jan 14, 2010 20:34:27 GMT -5
I know you're just interested in learning about the event, and unfortunately I can't answer your question for sure, but check out the literature here (found on Google): www.sailing.ca/files/cst/2010_Youth_Olympic_Selection.pdfAs a side note, I think it's great if Canada ignores this event, though the document suggests the COC won't. We already have World Youth, World Juniors, and Pam Am Jr's, and the list goes on. Who really cares if you win a youth Olympic gold at age 16? Come back in 10 years with one at the senior level and then talk to me. But perhaps I'm in the minority there. The athlete that makes it does, their parents, family, training partners, coach, club, competitors, the local track and sports community, their local community in general, their school, teachers, the media ( if notified). Lots of people care and it can be a life changing experience for those that make it. and sometimes for those around the athlete ( if they can do it then maybe I can to). Every sport needs stepping stones (for both for the average runners as well as the best ) to encourage them to continue to strive for greater heights and sometimes these competitions provide that as well as an eye opener to what goes on elsewhere in our world. If its a global competition, Canada should be a part of it. I know some on this board relate everything to becoming a world class runner in their late 20s but very few will ever get there. For most it's not about that. It's about seeing what they can do now and if they do well, have fun and enjoy it they just might keep at it while others quit. Coachc, would you mind if I printed and framed this? It is priceless. Did you actually read the part about there already being lots of top level competition for kids of this age, including a world championship? The best 16 year olds can often make World Juniors and Pan Am Juniors, so you can add that to the mix too. It is true by definition that "only a few will make it to the top levels". This is simple arithmetic. The point is, we don't know till it happens who those few are going to be! And if we start with the assumption that most kids aren't going to that level, and design our development programs based on the logic your using--i.e. grab it all now because you're probably not going to be any good when you're older-- then we are bound to get what we expect, which is fewer kids maximizing their ability. If you show me a kid who would choose to make it the the "Youth Olympics" rather than the real Olympics, if they truly understood that aiming for the Youth Olympics might undermine their chances of making it to the real Olympics, then we can talk. All young athletes want to reach the highest levels possible, but they are naturally short sighted, and believe they can have it all. If we as coaches and parents don't understand and guard against this, then we have given up completely on the whole concept of long term athlete development. Sometimes I wonder who gets more excited about this age group stuff, the athletes themselves, or the adults around them. However, there's one thing I'm gratified to see you finally admit, albeit inadvertently: that going for it at the highest levels at 15-16 may actually undermine a young athlete's long term development (it's just that you don't seem to care!). This is a start at least. |
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Post by Eldridge on Jan 14, 2010 22:09:48 GMT -5
the question needs to be towards coaching/training and not whether or not we should attend. training hard for and peaking for this meet may be bad, but ATTENDING may not be such a bad thing. it can be used as a way to interest athletes into furthering themself or increasing their interest and willingness to train later. it worked for me. i was ready to quit before i qualified for the WYC.
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Post by runningispain on Jan 14, 2010 22:15:26 GMT -5
Thank you eldridge, Truly I dont believe what oldster and coach c is saying. How will makeing something like the Youth Olympics "undermine" your chances at success? El Gourouge ran world juniors. Instead of peeking for ofsaa maybe you want to peek for worlds so I dont think it makes any sense. I also see what pmac is saying but I also disagree with that. I think age groups are very good for the sport. Imagine if they didnt have age groups in any organized running at all? Most kids would quit and not run at all.
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Post by runningispain on Jan 14, 2010 22:18:35 GMT -5
wait i agree with coach c i meant not oldster and pmac  |
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Post by coachc on Jan 14, 2010 22:27:04 GMT -5
Please don't let oldster put words in my mouth, which he likes to do. I did not say that making world competitions or doing well at 16 or 17 will undermine your future chances of doing well
( oldsters words not mine) In fact I said that doing well and making such teams may actually help keep you in the sport, quite the opposite of what oldster implied. I think Eldridge put it well with his personal experience.
And runningispain is right on too without age groups and major competitions to shoot for a lot of kids would quit.
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Post by oldster on Jan 14, 2010 23:45:36 GMT -5
the question needs to be towards coaching/training and not whether or not we should attend. training hard for and peaking for this meet may be bad, but ATTENDING may not be such a bad thing. it can be used as a way to interest athletes into furthering themself or increasing their interest and willingness to train later. it worked for me. i was ready to quit before i qualified for the WYC. Eldridge, you make a fair point here; but, I would disagree with your suggestion including yet another large-scale, high profile meet for very young athletes is a good idea for long term athlete development. For the very naturally precocious athlete who can qualify for a meet of this scale without making it a focus-- i.e. while following a sensible long term developmental approach-- participating would likely not be a problem. The difficulty is that the very existence of this meet is counterproductive to long term athlete development because it is a strong inducement, broadly speaking, to train inappropriately at ages 14-16. And another argument against it from an LTAD perspective is that, even for those very precocious young athletes I referred to, another very big meet on the competitive calendar-- i.e. on top of the other two or three serious international age class competitions on offer-- is an inducement to doing too much very high level competition at too early an age. Not to say the simple existence of the meet will MAKE anyone do anything; it existence does, however, raise the risk that more athletes will TRY to do it all between ages 16 and 19. And, coachc, this issue here is not your words, but the logic of your argument. Why set up an opposition between those who "relate everything to becoming a world class runner in their late 20s" and your own position-- i.e. that since "very few will ever get there" anyway, why concern ourselves so much with LTAD-- in the first place? You did indeed say that you thought the two things-- becoming a top level adult athlete and training for high level age class success-- were not incompatible; but, you also clearly implied that, if it turned out they were NOT compatible, it shouldn't matter, because most kids aren't going anywhere as adults anyway. Here, you clearly admit for the first time that age class success and senior elite success may not be compatible. And this, as I said, at least acknowledges that there is an argument to be had. |
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Post by oldster on Jan 15, 2010 0:00:23 GMT -5
P.S. Runningispain, no one has suggested that the problem is age class running per se. Age class competition is, of course, vital to this and any sport. My argument is is that the age class competition should be made to support long term athlete development, so that EVERY kid gets to both enjoy the sport and have the best odds of becoming the very best athlete he/she can be. And no one really becomes the best athlete he/she can be before the age of about 25. People like coachc can argue that adult success is not the be all and end all for every young athlete (but. show me a talented young athlete who would choose age class success over adult success). But, we have no right to set up an athlete development system that effectively makes the choice between adult success and age group success FOR kids-- i.e. the kind of system that the best evidence suggests might well reduce the odds that they will want to continue past the age of 21.
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Post by runningispain on Jan 15, 2010 0:18:50 GMT -5
P.S. Runningispain, no one has suggested that the problem is age class running per se. Age class competition is, of course, vital to this and any sport. My argument is is that the age class competition should be made to support long term athlete development, so that EVERY kid gets to both enjoy the sport and have the best odds of becoming the very best athlete he/she can be. And no one really becomes the best athlete he/she can be before the age of about 25. People like coachc can argue that adult success is not the be all and end all for every young athlete (but. show me a talented young athlete who would choose age class success over adult success). But, we have no right to set up an athlete development system that effectively makes the choice between adult success and age group success FOR kids-- i.e. the kind of system that the best evidence suggests might well reduce the odds that they will want to continue past the age of 21. Well everyone would pick adult success over youth or junior success but why would an athlete have to chose that. If you are very talented in highschool setting national records etc. The chances of you being good in post highschool to me sound good. I can name a few names if you want... |
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cda
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Post by cda on Jan 15, 2010 8:58:59 GMT -5
I can name a few names if you want... Like El Gourroge? Or Bikili? You do seem to have a widespread knowledge of international calibre runners. I'd be curious as to the contents of that list. |
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Post by runningispain on Jan 15, 2010 10:45:16 GMT -5
I can name a few names if you want... Like El Gourroge? Or Bikili? You do seem to have a widespread knowledge of international calibre runners. I'd be curious as to the contents of that list. Kevin Sullivan, jeff Schielber (dont know if I spelt his name right), Steve Prefontain, Usain Bolt, (I know he is not a distance runner but he killed everyone in highschool and I think he didnt "burn out") Alan Webb the list goes on. |
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pmac
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Post by pmac on Jan 15, 2010 11:11:42 GMT -5
Kevin Sullivan, jeff Schielber (dont know if I spelt his name right), Steve Prefontain, Usain Bolt, (I know he is not a distance runner but he killed everyone in highschool and I think he didnt "burn out") Alan Webb the list goes on. Instead of addressing Bolt, Webb and Sullivan, who are anomalies in more ways than one, I'll look at the other three men you mentioned who do not belong on your fabled list. Since you mentioned Hicham El Guerroj earlier, I'll address him first. To start, I present a shocking statistic to you perhaps- Geurrouj didn't run World Youths- he only began running at the age of 16 and rose to prominence quickly. It should be noted he didn't run his future specialty at World Juniors in 1992- he instead ran the 5000m and medalled. When he started running, World Youths didn't exist- they began in 1999. Yet somehow he managed to set the world record in the mile (actually the same year as when Youths began). Same for Schiebler- he didn't start running until the age of 15 and made World Junior cross country his first time basically off of hockey training. He stepped off the ice and moved onto the track for good after that. Prefontaine was dominant in high school, but he also never ran World Juniors- he was over in Europe after his senior year of high school to compete at the Senior level, and World Juniors didn't even exist at that point- they didn't start until 1986. The man who won the gold in Prefontiane's only Olympic performance, Lasse Viren, did not debut onto the international until he he was 22- somehow he managed to win double gold in Munich a year later despite having no Youth Olympics or World Youths experience. |
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Post by runningispain on Jan 15, 2010 11:34:39 GMT -5
Kevin Sullivan, jeff Schielber (dont know if I spelt his name right), Steve Prefontain, Usain Bolt, (I know he is not a distance runner but he killed everyone in highschool and I think he didnt "burn out") Alan Webb the list goes on. Instead of addressing Bolt, Webb and Sullivan, who are anomalies in more ways than one, I'll look at the other three men you mentioned who do not belong on your fabled list. Since you mentioned Hicham El Guerroj earlier, I'll address him first. To start, I present a shocking statistic to you perhaps- Geurrouj didn't run World Youths- he only began running at the age of 16 and rose to prominence quickly. It should be noted he didn't run his future specialty at World Juniors in 1992- he instead ran the 5000m and medalled. When he started running, World Youths didn't exist- they began in 1999. Yet somehow he managed to set the world record in the mile (actually the same year as when Youths began). Same for Schiebler- he didn't start running until the age of 15 and made World Junior cross country his first time basically off of hockey training. He stepped off the ice and moved onto the track for good after that. Prefontaine was dominant in high school, but he also never ran World Juniors- he was over in Europe after his senior year of high school to compete at the Senior level, and World Juniors didn't even exist at that point- they didn't start until 1986. The man who won the gold in Prefontiane's only Olympic performance, Lasse Viren, did not debut onto the international until he he was 22- somehow he managed to win double gold in Munich a year later despite having no Youth Olympics or World Youths experience. I already knew most of that but I dont think you got my point. My point is people who are world class youth/junior athletes are probably going to be world class later in their career. So I dont know what you were trying to prove from what you just said. |
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Post by oldster on Jan 15, 2010 11:42:28 GMT -5
Like El Gourroge? Or Bikili? You do seem to have a widespread knowledge of international calibre runners. I'd be curious as to the contents of that list. Kevin Sullivan, jeff Schielber (dont know if I spelt his name right), Steve Prefontain, Usain Bolt, (I know he is not a distance runner but he killed everyone in highschool and I think he didnt "burn out") Alan Webb the list goes on. With all due respect, you're missing the point here. Of course it's possible to do well in the senior elite ranks following a successful age-class career. Most senior elites were at least good age-class competitors (although the overwhelming majority of them were NOT age class prodigies, capable of winning at the global level as teenagers, and quite a few were not even the national calibre as 16 year olds.) The question is: what kind of developmental model is best for ensuring that age-class competitors have the best shot at becoming the top senior elite performers they all dream of being-- one that encourages a lot intense, high-level competition (and thereby training) at an early age, or one in which this kind of competition and training are carefully restricted? The most knowledgeable and experienced people in Canadian athletics have already weighed-in systematically on this question, and the results of their findings can be found in ACs Long Term Athlete Development guidelines. (And, for other research, see some of the references cited by coachct in a recent and related thread). The preponderance of the evidence supports a conservative and graduated approach to age class training and competition. Something like the "Youth Olympics"-- which, lets be clear, was not cooked up in order support long term athlete development, but to make money for the IOC, potential host countries, sponsors, etc-- completely flies in the face of everything we know about sensible LTAD. Now, you can take it from people like the authors of ACs LTAD guidelines-- people who have nothing in particular to gain in advocating a conservative approach to LTAD-- or you can listen to a couple of "hockey dads"-- people with very little long term experience in the sport, who basically followed their kids into it, and who have developed a personal stake in a particular approach to age-class sport. Coaches J and c never miss an opportunity to weigh-in on the subject of age-class sport and LTAD, but have nothing constructive to say about it, and are dismissive of any formal research on the question, including the above mentioned LTAD document (check their output for yourself). As coaches, they appear so caught up in the pursuit of age-class competition as an end in itself that they are unable to entertain the possibility that they could be wrong, and are irritated by the very suggestion. As you see in this thread, their latest response has been to say that age-class athletics shouldn't always be about LTAD because "most kids aren't going on to senior elite careers anyway"-- a nice message to kids, BTW, as well as a really stupid way to approach LTAD! (Or coachj, in the other thread has seized on the notion that our decline in senior elite level distance running is really "society's fault", because kids are now fatter, weaker, and lazier-- never mind the fact that Canada's age-classers are as plentiful and as fast as they have ever been in history!) (By now, I find THEM irritating too; but, I have tried to remain open to the possibility that I could be wrong-- when the suggestion has been put to me by someone with some experience, and who has clearly done some hard searching and thinking on the question. And, yeah, I consider this a bit of a crusade for me. For that, I make no apologies.) |
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Post by runningispain on Jan 15, 2010 11:49:12 GMT -5
Where do you get this data oldster? Im very curius to check it out.
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Post by oldster on Jan 15, 2010 12:17:16 GMT -5
I haven't checked lately, but AC may have the LTAD document available online through their website. If not, just ask any club coach or administrator. All affiliated clubs were sent hard copies of the document a couple of years ago.
And here are three other broader but useful references:
Michael Wall and Jean Cote, Developmental activities that lead to dropout and investment in sport, in Physical Education and Sport Pedagogy
Vol. 12, No. 1, February 2007, pp. 77–87
Jessica Fraser-Thomas and Jean Côté, Youth Sports: Implementing Findings and Moving Forward with Research, in Athletic Insight: The online journal of sports psychology, September, 2006
Volume 8, Issue 3
Cote, Baker and Abernathy, Practice and Play in the Development of Sports Expertise, in Eklund and Tennenbaum (eds), Handbook of Sports Psychology.
Happy reading!
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Post by oldster on Jan 15, 2010 13:38:32 GMT -5
Kevin Sullivan, jeff Schielber (dont know if I spelt his name right), Steve Prefontain, Usain Bolt, (I know he is not a distance runner but he killed everyone in highschool and I think he didnt "burn out") Alan Webb the list goes on. Instead of addressing Bolt, Webb and Sullivan, who are anomalies in more ways than one, I'll look at the other three men you mentioned who do not belong on your fabled list. Since you mentioned Hicham El Guerroj earlier, I'll address him first. To start, I present a shocking statistic to you perhaps- Geurrouj didn't run World Youths- he only began running at the age of 16 and rose to prominence quickly. It should be noted he didn't run his future specialty at World Juniors in 1992- he instead ran the 5000m and medalled. When he started running, World Youths didn't exist- they began in 1999. Yet somehow he managed to set the world record in the mile (actually the same year as when Youths began). Same for Schiebler- he didn't start running until the age of 15 and made World Junior cross country his first time basically off of hockey training. He stepped off the ice and moved onto the track for good after that. Prefontaine was dominant in high school, but he also never ran World Juniors- he was over in Europe after his senior year of high school to compete at the Senior level, and World Juniors didn't even exist at that point- they didn't start until 1986. The man who won the gold in Prefontiane's only Olympic performance, Lasse Viren, did not debut onto the international until he he was 22- somehow he managed to win double gold in Munich a year later despite having no Youth Olympics or World Youths experience. Also meant to say thanks for this, pmac. Young athletes and their coaches need to be reminded of this sort of thing as often as possible. |
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Post by goingthedistance on Jan 15, 2010 16:35:09 GMT -5
I can name a few names if you want... Like El Gourroge? Or Bikili? You do seem to have a widespread knowledge of international calibre runners. I'd be curious as to the contents of that list. hahaha, I find it necessary to point it out to runningispain, that he was making fun of you! You are definitely the dumbmest person on this board both with your spelling and your comments. |
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cda
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Post by cda on Jan 15, 2010 18:55:54 GMT -5
I already knew most of that but I dont think you got my point. My point is people who are world class youth/junior athletes are probably going to be world class later in their career. So I dont know what you were trying to prove from what you just said. What he's suggesting is that world-class runners aren't necessarily world-class junior runners. What he was trying to prove from what he just said is that your views are misguided. Which has to be the biggest understatement/euphemism I've ever coughed up. |
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Post by slapchop on Jan 15, 2010 20:55:13 GMT -5
I'm just a fool in a clash of titans here but I'd give my left-nut to to be in any type of international competition and probably sell my soul for it to be track and field. If the guy wants to go for it, then Hell yeah. It's a freaking foot-race against other people (only these people are from other countries). No god dang, physically different from ofsaa, blosaa or dfasdfasdssa-saa. Honestly, a few races isn't gonna mess you up long term - unless you have no life and can't get over a few bad races. I say these athletes go for it now, because this opportunity may never come back. You guys overthink everything - Run the damn race and make us proud man, the real battle is in your head (o and with goofballs trying to stop you from taking opportunites of a lifetime). Remember runningispain, I'd cut my fingers off to be world-class.
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Post by runningispain on Jan 15, 2010 21:27:19 GMT -5
I'm just a fool in a clash of titans here but I'd give my left-nut to to be in any type of international competition and probably sell my soul for it to be track and field. If the guy wants to go for it, then Hell yeah. It's a freaking foot-race against other people (only these people are from other countries). No god dang, physically different from ofsaa, blosaa or dfasdfasdssa-saa. Honestly, a few races isn't gonna mess you up long term - unless you have no life and can't get over a few bad races. I say these athletes go for it now, because this opportunity may never come back. You guys overthink everything - Run the damn race and make us proud man, the real battle is in your head (o and with goofballs trying to stop you from taking opportunites of a lifetime). Remember runningispain, I'd cut my fingers off to be world-class. EXACTLY!!!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!! and same here. |
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Post by oldster on Jan 16, 2010 12:31:07 GMT -5
I see where you guys are coming from here, but there are larger questions to address when considering whether Canada should be encouraging our best young athletes to focus on the global level at this age-- and if something like the Youth Olympics becomes part of our program, more very talented young athletes and their coaches WILL begin ramp it up in training and competition with it as a goal. As soon as you attach the "Olympic" brand to something, people lose their ability to think straight (e.g. see coachc reference to the local "enthusiasm" that would greet the prospect of having a kid named to this team.) In fact, I can almost guarantee that you will see positive doping tests associated with a meet of this scale, if not in Canada then somewhere. The "Youth Olympics" would reinforce the worst aspects of our current LTAD practices and further undermine our performance at the senior elite adult level-- along with encouraging some of the worst abuses associated with a too serious approach to age-class competition.
And if we're speaking from personal experience, I can tell you that, at 16, I probably would have lost my mind at the prospect of going to a "kid's Olympics" too; but, as an adult, I'm glad no such thing existed when I was coming up. I had my share of age-class success (i.e. OFSAA medals and such), and I really enjoyed competing as a kid. I can also tell you, however, that the success I achieved as an adult has been 100 times richer and more meaningful than anything I did as a teenager. I'm glad that I got lucky, and that my own age-class participation turned out to be highly conducive to adult success. For the sake of every young athlete, and for the sake of our future success internationally, we need a model that gives kids the best shot at reaching their full potential. Kids can still have tons of fun with this sport, and build some great memories, while deferring their international aspirations to the late junior or senior levels. There is no hurry, and nothing need be lost in taking it slowly.
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Post by oldster on Jan 16, 2010 13:36:55 GMT -5
P.S. To those who continually suggest that high level age-class success is not incompatible with adult success, and who insist on pointing to anomolous cases (and couldn't be bothered to look at any of the above cited research), consider the following analogy: not all cigarette smokers die of cigarette smoking; some seem to have a genetic or other natural immunity to the effects of smoking. The trouble is, the only way to find out if you have this special immunity is to smoke for years and NOT die! If you do die, it's obviously too late to change course. Likewise, there are young athletes who go on to become great adult athletes in spite of very early specialization and intense training. However, as with smoking, the only way to find out if you're one of these special athletes is to try specializing early and training very hard and see how you end up. If get lucky, you go on to a great adult career. If you turn out to be like the average, however, you're likely going to have big problems doing well as a senior, if you even retain the desire to try. That some individuals survive smoking and some young athletes become great following intense age-class careers is not an argument for either one of these things. The best advice to give to the average young person is to avoid these things (not to say that they are moral equivalents, or in any way equally dangerous). And ALL young people must be assumed to be average for the purposes of protecting their best interests, because the costs of wrongly assuming that a young person is NOT average might be total and irreversible.
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