Clohessy/DeCastella training

[sparta]

Hi Folks,

This is my first post here.

I am wondering if any of you can point out any in-depth stuff on Pat Clohessy's "Complex Training" (he coached DeCastella).

Or maybe you follow his stuff yourself?

Even plain old opinions would be received warmly.

Thanks.

[robkitz]

From "Running wih the Legends":
Sunday 22-mile run
Monday am 10 miles, pm 6 miles
Tuesday 2-3 mile tempo run, followed by 8 hill repeats; or, 30-minute hilly fartlek run
Wednesday am 18 miles, pm 6 miles
Thursday track session such as 8 X 400 or 16 X 200
Friday am 10 miles, pm 6 miles
Saturday am race or tempo run, pm 6 miles

Track workouts were run with short, "float recoveries", 200m for the 400s and 100m for the 200s. Long runs started slow, got down to around 6 minute mile pace, with a fast final mile. Hill repeats were short, steep, and hard. Recovery runs were run easy - usually around 62-63 minutes for 10 miles, but sometimes as slow as 7 minute miles.

Didn't really use periodization, instead believed in consistency as the key. Did pretty much the same training every week. Averaged 120 miles a week for 10 years, with no significant breaks in his training.

[Bomba]

...the 'complex system' isn't one specific training paradigm....there r essentially 2 types...deeks/clohessy and mona/wardlaw.....similar but with slight differences.....

exact from deek's autobios...i have mona's somehwere..when i find it i'll post it


eact same as above but with details

Mon: 10km in 38min
noon 30mins gym work pm 16km in hour
Tues: 10km in 38 noon gym pm 10km in 38mins and then 12 laps of straight and corners
Wed: 10km in 38 noon gym pm 29km in 1 hr 50
Thurs: 10km in 38 noon gym pm 5km in 18 mins and then the 'deek' (400 -200m float session)
Fri: 10km in 38 noon gym om 18km in 54 mins
Sat: am 19-21 at 18min 5km pace plus 6 strides pm 10km in 38mins
Sun: 33-36 km in 2hr 15 - 2hr 40 pm 8km in 31 mins

mona does many similar things but threw in his monafartlek and a tempo run on sat and ran a little shorter on wed....

[SI]

denton said:

...the 'complex system' isn't one specific training paradigm....there r essentially 2 types...deeks/clohessy and mona/wardlaw.....similar but with slight differences.....

exact from deek's autobios...i have mona's somehwere..when i find it i'll post it


eact same as above but with details

Mon: 10km in 38min
noon 30mins gym work pm 16km in hour
Tues: 10km in 38 noon gym pm 10km in 38mins and then 12 laps of straight and corners
Wed: 10km in 38 noon gym pm 29km in 1 hr 50
Thurs: 10km in 38 noon gym pm 5km in 18 mins and then the 'deek' (400 -200m float session)
Fri: 10km in 38 noon gym om 18km in 54 mins
Sat: am 19-21 at 18min 5km pace plus 6 strides pm 10km in 38mins
Sun: 33-36 km in 2hr 15 - 2hr 40 pm 8km in 31 mins

mona does many similar things but threw in his monafartlek and a tempo run on sat and ran a little shorter on wed....

So I am reading this post and the one above it and thinking it doesn't look too bad and then you read:


18km in 54 mins


The whole 10 years/120 mpw thing is pretty amazing too.

[Max]

I spent May and June of 2006 in Brisbane Australia and had the chance to train with Pat Clohessy's group at the UQ track. His training is really not complex, he's all about "running for form", doing it day in and day out (twice a day except for long run days, with no rest days) focusing on form is the way to go. He would never ask anyone to kill themselves on the track, you get better by doing "lots of easy running". We would do some medium and long track stuff, 5x1200m with 400m jog rest or 12-15x400m with 200m jog, some fartlek (Mona fartlek) and continuous hill tempo (stride up a hill jog down 10times, followed by a 5-10min tempo run, then finish with the hills again). When we worked out on the track, he would always tell us to "run for form", not worrying about times but making sure we ran efficiently the whole workout.

I asked him about weight training once and what he thought of it, and he said that running a lot will make you better, not weights. so why waste the time? I think weights are a beneficial, but that's just how he sees it...

The Mona fartlek was quite an interesting workout...on paper, it seemed really easy:
2x90s, 4x1min, 4x30sec, 4x15sec with equal rest
The "on" sections are fast (faster than tempo) and the rest is like tempo. You increase the pace and recovery with decreasing interval time. Those last 15sec intervals seemed a lot longer!!! It's a great workout.

Anyways, I just thought I'd share my experience with Pat's training group (Pete Nowill was one of them 8:22 steeple).
Cheers!

[sparta]

I have received some information that Deek did "periodize" in his own way.

This comes from Nobby Hashizume on another discussion board:

"I had a fortune to talk to Dr. Dick Telford who advised Deek during the time he was preparing for LA Olympics. I told him that Bill Baillie, one of Arthur's original runners, predicted that Deek is not going to win the marathon because he "does not peak". To that, Dr. Telford diagreed and said that Deek did in fact peak. As Frank Shorter with his training program, Deek would vary the volume and intensity depending on the time of the year and/or year to year. Naturally, when he's not racing, he might do the program with more volume and less intensity. As the racing, or THE race comes nearer, he would cut down the volume and increase to intencity."

Thanks for the responses so far.

Bomba, I hope you find Mona's info too.

Al

[Bomba]

.....i was staring right at the book last night...geesshhh....

i should ad that deek altered some things as well as he also did a tempo style run and then some shorter and longer hills (egs when i was in melbourne and had a few runs with the 'pack' lads they had what they called a 'deek' session (often seen as a 10min steady followed by 8 x 40-60 sec hills) where they ran a 1/2 tan (around 2km...apparently they also had a full tan of 4km) and then jogged to some hill and did some variation of hills from 10-40 secs around some trees, so i guess deek would alter things as reality set in in...

...when i was travelling in aussie....welll nick harrison (oz oly in 2004) and scott nicholas (an american guy - nike rep- who was living there...and as it turns out i had raced against a handful of times as he was a U of Oregon miler......and of course had the 'do u know Al Klassen?' question...which of course led to my quote that 'Al Klassen is the most famous 3:39 trunner in the world') were doing a track session on a tues but it was 10 x 400m off 100m or 1min set break and they had done a 7km tempo on the saturday (along with a 2 hr 30min run on the sunday)....

the 'complex' system according to mona.....

Mon: 10km and 16km easy
Tues: 8km easy 5km w up and 6 w down with a 6km fartlek (monofartlek)
Wed: 8km easy and 24 km easy + wts
thurs: 8km easy 4km w up and w down with the 'deek' session
Fri: 8km easy 15km easy
Sat: 4km w up and w. down with 7km hard run on hilly course 12km easy
Sun: long run 2hr 30mins (35 kms) 10km easy + wts....

apparently mona periodized hsi trainign quite a bit more than deek and threw in 10 mile tempos when getting ready to race.....both deek and mona also tended to race more (egs 10km, 1/2, etc.....) when preparing to race, so one could say they use the 'complex' method to get fit and then used racing to get race ready.....makes sense as the 'complex' system is based upon clohessy's experiences with lydiard in the 60's as an interval training athlete while at uni in texas) and wardlaw was also a clohessy advised athlete.....

...when i was taking my level 3 course 2 yrs ago i brought up the concept of not following a peridozed approach as per se the 'complex' system....my answer was that we didn't follow that approach here so why discuss it......geeezzz....mona, deek...and a bunch of other sub 2:12 guys and we shouldn't consider it...i wonder why we don't have any 2:10-2:12 guys

[Bomba]

...to add telford is a very good coach, but my observations says he is quite different that deek/mona in many instances (althouhg both lydiard advocates).....if u know much about mottram's training you'll see many similarities with telford and nic bideau....see interview with scott westscott used to be at the AIS with telford and leatherby (with bideau)

www.coolrunning.com.au/competitiveedge/interviews/index.shtml

[sparta]

Nobby Hashizume just sent me an article called "The Peaking Hoax" by Pat Clohessy with Les Johnson (Runner's World July 1985)

A little teaser:

"Peaking is unnecessary for the international runner and unjustifiable
for anyone else. I believe the concept of peaking—that is, setting a long-term goal and sublimating everything in between the present and that goal—is a hoax, a mere figment of some coaches’ imaginations. Perhaps they believe that they can produce another Viren. Not likely."

Anyways, a very stimulating read. Apparently Nobby plans to post it on the Lydiard Foundation website soon. www.lydiardfoundation.org

[herodotus]

He'd better post it soon! Because without an explanation / context, I'm not sure that I understand the concept of peaking anymore, after reading that!

[sparta]

The Lydiard site is slick but a little behind schedule in really coming together content-wise.

I'm surprised, Skuj, that you don't have all the back issues from the good old days when the magazine was probably worth reading.

[herodotus]

I thought Lydiard was all about The Big Peak! I cannot, for the life of me, understand why Nobby is attracted to something called "The Peaking Hoax", and I look forward to discovering its inner charms and real meaning et al. Cus peaking ain't no hoax.