New Carding Criteria

[oldster]

You had a question? I'm only on here to say what I think is wrong with imposing a residency/NTC requirement on carded athletes (that is would be out of touch with current realities and therefore counterproductive, at least in the absence of a major, and likely never to occur, reinvestment in the sport in this country). I've made no claim to introducing any new ideas/points about carding, NTCs, or athlete development in particular.

[bystander]

Let's look at the last 5 years (2005-2009) to see what we have on the Track in terms of quality development - men and women (800, 1500m, 5000m, 10000m, SC) based on the recent (2009) A and B standards.

Are these standards out of line with reality? The distance performances for the women aren't all that encouraging, as world levels drop to low-14's and low-30's. Other than SR, are there viable options that are really developing athletes to make a go at these standards beyond the already supported vision of 800/1500m?
Given the paucity of A standard athletes beyond 1500m, is it any wonder why no NTC's exist for distances, or why some feel that AC is ignoring distance athletes.
Is this typical elsewhere? i.e. the UK manage to get women on the podium for 800/1500m (Meadows/Dobriskey) but are weaker at distances almost as much as we are in Canada (apart from Radcliffe/Yamauchi). It is their distance men (Mo Farah excepted) who are falling behind the most it seems - no wonder their marathon standards have fallen.
Stonger performances at 5k/10k lay the foundation for depth at the marathon - I see the potential for a number of Canadian men to move towards sub-2h10, but where will the sub-2h30 women come from if we can't get better depth at 5k/10k (sub15.30/low 32).

I didn't include the Marathon as Standards are "inconsistent" due to a variety of factors.

M 800m:
A Std (1.45.40) - G.Reed (05,06,07,08,09) NTC Victoria; A.Tadilli (06,08) NTC Victoria
B Std (1.46.60) - A.Tadilli (05,07) NTC Victoria ; A.Ellerton (05,07) US-based (Mich)
W 800m:
A Std (2.00.00) - D.Cummins (07,08) NTC Victoria (now US-based)
B Std (2.01.30) - D.Cummins (05) ; A.Teteris (07,08) NTC Victoria (now Phoenix?)
M 1500m:
A Std (3.36.20) - K.Sullivan (05,06,07,08) US-Based(Mich/Ill/Fla); N.Brannen (05,06,08) US-based
(Mich); T.Milne (08) Speed River
B.Std (3.39.20) - R.McKenzie (06/07) Windsor/Vict NTC?; Brannen (09); Milne (09); K. Benninger (08)
US-based(?); G.Wells (08) Vict NTC?; M.Lincoln (09) Phoenix.
W 1500m:
A Std (4.06.00) - C.Douma-Hussar (05,06,07) US-based (Villa); H.Stellingwerf (06,07) Speed River;
M.Elmore (07) BC/Alb?
B Std (4.09.00) - Stellingwerf (05,08,09) ; Elmore (06,08,09); K.Vermeulen (05) Victoria NTC
M 5000m:
A Std (13.20.00) - K.Sullivan (07) US-Based (see above)
B Std (13.29.00) - K.Sullivan (05); R.Coolsaet (05,07) Speed River; P.Morrison (07) US-based (?);
S.Bairu (07) US-Based (Wisc/OTC)
W 5000m:
A Std (15.10.00) - None
B Std (15.25.00) - M.Metcalfe (07,08) US-based(WV) ; M.Elmore (07) BC/Alb?
M 10000m:
A Std (27.47.00) - None
B Std (28.12.00) - S.Bairu (05,07,09) US-based (Wisc/OTC) ; R.Coolsaet (07) Speed River;
E.Gillis (08) Speed River
W 10000m:
A Std (31.45.00) - None
B Std (32.20.00) - None (T.Quinn-Smith closest, however) BMP
M Steeple:
A Std (8.23.00) - M.Kerr (05) US-based (?)
B Std (8.33.50) - A.Genest (06,09) Que/Speed River; R.Watson (09) Speed River
W Steeple:
A Std (9.40.00) - None
B Std (9.48.00) - None (No one under 10.00 recently)

From a University development aspect:
Women - Can (2 - Cummins/Vermeulen) US (6 - Teteris, Douma-Hussar, Stellingwerf, Elmore, Vermeulen, Metcalfe ) (and Quinn-Smith)
Men - Can (7 - Reed, Tadilli, McKenzie, Wells, Coolsaet, Gillis, Genest) US (10 -Ellerton, Sullivan, Brannen, Milne, Benninger, Lincoln, Morrison, Bairu, Kerr, Watson)

[diane]

I am curious to know if any other athletes have felt pegged in a certain event because its their best chance of making a team and getting funding? (funding is huge!)

In all honesty I stuck to the 800m for so long because it was a safe bet. For a while there we could make the National with a fitness standard (B standard) and making a Natinal Team guarenteed funding.

Now at 36 I wish I had started the 1500m sooner... why didnt I ? The truth, I was too afraid of the risk. If I failed to make the team in the 1500m and I falied to perform in the 800m I lose everything.

Has anyone else felt this?

i really like kevin's idea of a 4 year card (or even just a 2 year card). This gives the athlete a little more room to experiment and learn/adapt to training and racing for the new event.

It appears to me that there is not a lot of encouragement or support (from the powers that be) for our athletes to move up a distance, which in my opinion is a logical move for most.
Our 4 runners should be moving to the 8, 8 to 15, 15 to 5k, 5k to 10k and marathon etc.

Why is it that when an athlete is no longer pb'ing in an event the plug is pulled so to speak. We have lots of talent in our middle distance and we should be investing in the future of these athletes in longer distances... after all, to be good at the 15 you have to be good at the 8 and so on.

this new carding system just makes it worse !

[ronb]

Apr 21, 2010 17:59:27 GMT -5 diane said:

I am curious to know if any other athletes have felt pegged in a certain event because its their best chance of making a team and getting funding? (funding is huge!)

In all honesty I stuck to the 800m for so long because it was a safe bet. For a while there we could make the National with a fitness standard (B standard) and making a Natinal Team guarenteed funding.

Now at 36 I wish I had started the 1500m sooner... why didnt I ? The truth, I was too afraid of the risk. If I failed to make the team in the 1500m and I falied to perform in the 800m I lose everything.

Has anyone else felt this?

i really like kevin's idea of a 4 year card (or even just a 2 year card). This gives the athlete a little more room to experiment and learn/adapt to training and racing for the new event.

It appears to me that there is not a lot of encouragement or support (from the powers that be) for our athletes to move up a distance, which in my opinion is a logical move for most.
Our 4 runners should be moving to the 8, 8 to 15, 15 to 5k, 5k to 10k and marathon etc.

Why is it that when an athlete is no longer pb'ing in an event the plug is pulled so to speak. We have lots of talent in our middle distance and we should be investing in the future of these athletes in longer distances... after all, to be good at the 15 you have to be good at the 8 and so on.

this new carding system just makes it worse !

very well said, d. - I hope you are doing well...

[ronb]

Bystander,
Let's see if I have your drift right. If not, I'm sure you will let me know --- kindly, I hope...
Because we are not doing really well in events 1500 m. and longer, on the track, on the roads, or over the country, are you suggesting that AC should just ignore the problem, and hope it somehow improves on it's own???
May I suggest that the number of Canadians who do take part in the aforementioned events, whether at the school level, University level, Provincial, National, Recreational, or whatever, would absolutely dwarf the numbers who take part in all the other events...Not even close ! So Canadians can and do care about having people take part in distance races, again regardless of the surface they are running on, or the level of their achievement. If AC is not willing or able to capitalize on the enormous benefits in terms of health and wellness, societal fitness, excellence in the whole "being able to endure" and being the "best we can be", not to mention all the potential sponsors and media and citizen awareness and interest, then they have lost the right to govern, and we should get our collective courage up, and do something about it... Just one man's opinion, of course...

[MattMc]

Questions of tone aside, I have a serious query.

What is the Ethiopian model? My half-informed impression is that it is somewhat of a top-down centralized model with all (or most?) of the top athletes training at the National team TC in Addis(?) with their national team coach (Dr. Wolde?).

Is their funding (if any) tied to their training there?

Could their traditional excellent peaking, and top performances at major champs (esp. compared to the Kenyans who have sign. more depth and a more decentralized libertarian model) be related somehow to this more centralized control?

Have things loosened up a bit in Ethiopia? It seems in the last 4 years they have more guys racing in major marathons and on the roads.

I am not saying this is entirely an NTC type model that we should emulate-- just that it is possible example of a (very) successful top-down centralized type model-- perhaps the very example Oldster was seeking.

I am happy to stand corrected on any of the above-- I am more curious than anything.

Respectfully, MM

[ahutch]

Interesting point, Matt. There's a good Running Times article from 2008 about the Ethiopian team here: runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=13867&PageNum=1 (though it doesn't give details about the exact terms under which the athletes train). That certainly supports the contention that it's possible to succeed with an autocratic model, though it doesn't imply that it's necessary or even beneficial. And Ethiopia isn't the only example: Morocco is another country with a strong centralized training program that has at times been very successful.

It's also worth noting the number of Ethiopian-born athletes who compete for other countries, some of whom cite bias within the Ethiopian athletics federation for their departure. Of course, we lost Kathy Butler, so I guess we can't criticize!

[MattMc]

Thanks for the article Hutch. It confirms many of the notions I had regarding their program.

While the Ethiopian, Moroccan (and Algerian?) examples may not imply that the top down method was the cause of the success-- they are examples of very (Ethiopian being perhaps the gold standard for championship and peak performance success in distance running) successful ones. It certainly seems to debunk Oldster's persistent point regarding a complete lack of examples.

MM

[MattMc]

Oldster, ragarding this point:

'As for your example of good things that were imposed "from above", I think you need to check your history a little more carefully. In almost every instance, and in every country, decent public services were the result of sustained and concerted popular agitation (i.e. "from below"), and often full scale mobilization, such that, when reforms were introduced, they addressed real felt needs.'

You have used a vague, sweeping generalization to explain the foundation of "decent public service in every country". This is not entirely (at best partially) correct unless you mean 'agitation' via the actions of a democratically elected government.

I have checked my history book and this allows me to use the example of the 'Medical Care Act' from 1966.

How was it implemented?

The Liberal Minority Government of Lester B. Pearson (under pressure from the NDP-- god bless them) passed the 'Medical Care Act' which has largely shaped the way health care has since been delivered in Canada.

Yes, perhaps there was grassroots 'agitation' among NDP (and other) supporters. However, the execution of such act was via a top-down central government process.

Perhaps you understood my use of top-down to mean autocratic-- if so, I did not mean for such an association. I simply mean for it to imply action from a central authority (whether democratically elected or otherwise).

The list of great institutions created by central government 'top-down' implementation is virtually endless, but I am happy to provide further examples if you so desire. I will even again pull out my history book again ;D

MM

[diane]

I think you have to take into consideration the fact that athletes in these countries, Ethiopia, Kenya, Morocco to name a few when successful, become Country hereos.

They also do not have the soctial pressures of "what will you do when your running career is over" ?
Bottom line... if they make it close to the top they've made it! they can buy property and feed the family for years.

When we make it close to the top we are still wondering what we are going to do when it's done.

These athletes train in these centralised camps .. they sleep, run. eat, sleep, run, eat sleep. They dont feel quilty about doing nothing after their run and they dont feel quilty about not planning their future... They are not "tri - angulated"


I dont think its fair to compare the systems of a country where being a professional athlete (in an amateur sport) is held in high regard, with a country where you are simply asked to show off your medal at the local schools. Totally different environments with completely different socio economic situations.

I 100% believe in a centralised training venue but think giving an athlete $1500/month expecting them to use their money wisely is futile. i think an NTC can be successful if it provides the accomodation, the food, the therapy, the travel and gives the athletes a little spending money. Sort of like the AIS in Canberra.
I dont know of a place in Canada that provides all of the above. Pacific Sport used to but i am not sure anymore.

[Steller]

To say the Ethiopian system is centralized is probably a gross-overstatement. So say that Ethiopia or Kenya has any “real” system at all is probably incorrect. They have somewhat of a dictatorial at best (hence so, so many athletes leaving for other countries). My viewpoint is that African athletes many times perform in spite of their system.

In fact, it is so dictatorial Gete Wami’s coach (and husband), Gethaneh Tessma,
(see: getanehtessema.com/the%20gete%20and%20getaneh%20story.htm ) probably has the best Marathon group in Ethiopia, but is not even allowed to use the National stadium. So their marathon group “sneaks” onto the track at 5AM! (Merga is in their group, and Gethaneh helps coach all of Jos Herman’s Ethiopian marathon runners).

So Diane is spot on to say that we should not compare what so ever to any other countries “system” that is not in line with our Canadian social-economical situation.

According to world 1500m champ, and former Ethiopian, Maryam Jamal (who just lived with us here in Lausanne the last month to train with Hilary), Dr Wolde is but a figure head these days (interesting article here: 205.188.238.109/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1637285_1637283_1637421,00.html ), and Maryam indicates that many athletes are pretty much self-coached and just get some input here and there.

It isn’t magic what they do: But, the fact is, they all learn at a young age that they better run close to 200km a week, at as high an altitude as possible, and do their unique drills-see great video here: (http://recoveryourstride.blogspot.com/2009/08/ethiopian-form-drills.html ), and make about 3 or 4 days a week bloody hard. On the other hand, the Ethiopians just had a horrible World Cross-Country champs.

I disagree that Ethiopia uses a centralized top-down method for their success. I think it is much, much more grass-roots than most realize. Prior to Hilary going to train in Addis a few years ago (see photos: www.runhilaryrun.ca/photos/images/Ethiopia/index.htm ), Maryam Jamal’s husband Tareq (her coach, and also World champ Yousef Kamal’s coach) seriously suggested that there might be 10,000 Ethiopians (0.01% of their total population) who could break 30min for 10km at sea-level. Of course, we did not believe it. But, when you go above Addis every morning to En toto (sp?), there are literally hundreds upon hundreds of people training away, with very few of them ever getting a break. This bottom-up push is unbelievable and undeniable. (Hilary saw Defar get dropped by a group of girls Hilary has never seen on the European Circuit. The next week she had dinner with Defar and mentioned it, and it was no worries to Defar—she said there are always people who are trying ot make a name for themselves). So, perhaps, there is that many runners in Ethiopia who could break 30min at sea-level.

So again, Diane was spot on regarding the huge societal differences on the viewpoint of running between African and N. America. Don’t get me wrong, they love to run….but they also love to make money (they will talk a lot about appearance fees and prize money etc.—probably more than N. Americans!). The drive to run fast is, for some of them, their ONLY ticket out of life-long poverty. Our Canadian kids just never face this pressure or reality. Our athletes need to find other intrinsic motivators as strong as the need to put food on the table.

So my viewpoint is the success of African is much more about a grass-roots “meat grinder”, where the cream just rises to the top, rather than any top-down, targeted, scientific, administratively creative, model that breeds success (despite what the Running Times article might portray).

Now I am not suggesting that all Canadian resources should be put into grass-roots, to develop a bottom-up approach – we just don’t have kids in Canada who want to be the next Haile (unlike in Ethiopia, where they ALL want to be the next Haile). Our kids are too busy wanting to be the next Sidney.

But, I do find it interesting that the top-down approach taken by Australia has very recently identified that community, health and wellness portion of their sport funding has basically been a complete failure! (according to a huge Aussie government study called the “Crawford Report” ---- you can see the entire report (all 357 pages) here: www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/1DDA76A44E5F4DD4CA257671000E4C45/$File/Crawford_Report.pdf

(maybe the link to this report should go into a seperate thread-- as there is just so much 'other' discussion points for this):
Here are a few things from the report:

- Elite sporting success is an important matter and requires continuing focus. But a balance needs to be struck between the amount of money invested by all levels of government…

- First, the funding imbalance between Olympic and non-Olympic sports should be questioned. More emphasis should be given to sports that are popular with many Australians.

- The bias towards funding Olympic sports leads to outcomes that make little strategic sense for Australia. For example, more government funds are provided for archery than cricket which has more than 100 times the number of participants.

- Furthermore, ‘medal count’ is a dubious measure. The Panel strongly believes the public needs to be educated to think differently about what constitutes Olympic success. There are currently around 300 events at the Olympics and medal count biases funding towards individual events rather than team sports which the Panel believes ought to have some priority given their importance to our society.

Anyways, these quotes are just the tip of the iceberg of this incredibly rich document that has just come out…I wonder how many of our top sport administrators have read yet?—should be required reading.

I guess my viewpoint is that top-down needs to meet bottom-up at some yet to be identified sweet-spot ….

[SI]

Apr 22, 2010 4:30:15 GMT -5 Steller said:

It isn’t magic what they do: But, the fact is, they all learn at a young age that they better run close to 200km a week, at as high an altitude as possible,

Throw all the money you want at the situation and that just isn't going to happen here. Period. To argue about subtle "top down" vs "bottom up" structures or centralized vs non-centralized training groups whether or not in Canada completely misses the point but carry-on.

[Steller]

RE: "To argue about subtle "top down" vs "bottom up" structures or centralized vs non-centralized training groups whether or not in Canada completely misses the point but carry-on."

SI- i don't quite follow you here? What point do you mean? Are you referring to something in my post, or this entire thread in general?

If I (or the last 13 pages of posters) are completely missing the point, what point do you mean?

[SI]

Thread in general. That wasn't directed at you-your quote was just useful.

[ronb]

Apr 22, 2010 15:56:36 GMT -5 SI said:

Thread in general. That wasn't directed at you-your quote was just useful.

I think I get your take on this one, SI...

In a country such as Canada, surely we want to encourage and support as many kids as possible to be more active and become more fit, and lay a foundation for at least a healthy, active lifestyle, and at most, have a good aerobic background should they wish to become endurance athletes. And also, the same level of encouragement and support for those with talent and motivation, who can strive to be "the best they can be", and represent our Country in National/International competition, all OTP bullshit aside...
Please don't take offense at this next statement --- it's meant as a realistic assessment of how the running World works, and I do not have a racist bone in my body, as my son, and my son-in-law, and my grandson could attest to...
If I really wanted to develop a top-down system, that was focused on OTP in distance running events, I would....
1) Pay a visit to Immigration Canada and find ways to move as many East Africans as possible to Canada --- especially those who were already in their teens, and getting ready to run fast...
Does anybody doubt that our friendly immigration policies with various countries in the Caribbean (Jamaica, Trinidad, Haiti, etc.)were part of the foundation of our sprint success?
2) Investigate, subtly of course, with various coaches, managers, doctors, even physiotherapists, dare I say, what forms of artificial performance enhancement are either techically not illegal, or very difficult/impossible to detect...
Then we PROUD CANADIANS might have a shot at OTP in events that last longer than a couple of minutes. Otherwise, not so much...

[ahutch]

Trent, that's fascinating stuff about the Crawford Report (which indeed should be required reading for Sport Canada officials). And also an interesting inside perspective on the Ethiopian system. As an aside, I just read this piece, posted earlier today, on Tsegaye Kebede, the Olympic bronze medallist who will be racing in London: www.universalsports.com/news/article/newsid=469708.html

"Kebede progressed well enough under Tessema's tutelage to convince his coach that he was ready to make his international debut. But a week before he was scheduled to race in Holland, he was denied a visa support letter by the Ethiopian Athletics Federation (EAF) because he belonged to a pilot project not an established athletics club."

Again, it underscores Diane's point about the differences between societies. Even if there was some reason to believe that harsh autocratic control did produce running excellence, those aren't terms I'd be comfortable living under or imposing on others. And, as Trent points out, it's likely other factors driving Ethiopian success anyway.

As for SI's point about the top-down versus bottom-up debate missing the point, well, I think he's missing the point. Anyone who thinks the structure of sport bureaucracy is all that stands between us and distance running dominance is delusional. But at the same time, there IS a sports bureaucracy in Canada, and it has to be structured somehow, so we might as well debate what the optimal structure is. By the same token, I'm interested in discussing, say, how fast you should run easy runs, even though there's nothing on this earth I can do with my easy runs that will allow me to run sub-27 for 10K. Or sub-28. Or sub-29... It all about doing the best you can with what you've got.

And speaking of 10Ks, there's a thread on letsrun saying that Sully's going to run one...

[coldneck]

www.athletics.ca/admin/..%5Cfiles%5C%5CNationalTeamPrograms%5CAthleteServices%5CCarding%5C2010%20SUPPLEMENTARY%20INFORMATION%20TO%20CARDING%20CRITERIA%20-EN.PDF

not sure if anyone linked the second part of the carding criteria yet. It's interesting to note how many points are allocated to training centres.

[oldster]

Apr 21, 2010 20:40:16 GMT -5 MattMc said:

Oldster, ragarding this point:

'As for your example of good things that were imposed "from above", I think you need to check your history a little more carefully. In almost every instance, and in every country, decent public services were the result of sustained and concerted popular agitation (i.e. "from below"), and often full scale mobilization, such that, when reforms were introduced, they addressed real felt needs.'

You have used a vague, sweeping generalization to explain the foundation of "decent public service in every country". This is not entirely (at best partially) correct unless you mean 'agitation' via the actions of a democratically elected government.

I have checked my history book and this allows me to use the example of the 'Medical Care Act' from 1966.

How was it implemented?

The Liberal Minority Government of Lester B. Pearson (under pressure from the NDP-- god bless them) passed the 'Medical Care Act' which has largely shaped the way health care has since been delivered in Canada.

Yes, perhaps there was grassroots 'agitation' among NDP (and other) supporters. However, the execution of such act was via a top-down central government process.

Perhaps you understood my use of top-down to mean autocratic-- if so, I did not mean for such an association. I simply mean for it to imply action from a central authority (whether democratically elected or otherwise).

The list of great institutions created by central government 'top-down' implementation is virtually endless, but I am happy to provide further examples if you so desire. I will even again pull out my history book again ;D

MM

Mattmc, two words (so as not to derail what has become a much more interesting thread, what with the great contributions of diane, Steller, and hutch): Progressivism (in the U.S. and partly in Canada), and Socialism (in Europe and partly in Canada). Without these two broad social movements "from below", the latter threatening to completely transform post-war European society, and the former growing out of the social evils of rapid capitalist industrialization/urbanization), there would have been no decent public works or social programs (including health care), or not until much later (look at what life is like in the U.S. states or parts of Western Europe where these movements were weak or defeated for a clue as to their historic significance in this regard). The actual passage of these acts-- often as compromises or stop-gaps in the face of more radical popular demands-- constitutes nothing but the final act, or even denouement, in these social dramas, in most instances.

[pq]

Apr 22, 2010 21:45:09 GMT -5 ahutch said:

... I'm interested in discussing, say, how fast you should run easy runs, ...

Hasn't this thread been acrimonious enough already?

[pq]

Apr 22, 2010 21:56:26 GMT -5 oldster said:

...Without these two broad social movements (progressivism and socialism), there would have been no decent public works or social programs (including health care), ...

They say Mussolini got the trains running on time...

In Chile (where I've been working frequently of late), most of the modern social and physical infrastructure is widely held to be due in large part to Pinochet's years in power. Their health care system is in many ways superior to ours (if not perhaps in the same degree of universal access of the same quality of service, since it is a two tier system, with lower quality public hospitals, and world class - and still reasonably priced - private hospitals and clinics).

Great public works and social programs can grow in a variety of political systems, some very autocratic.

[ahutch]

Apr 22, 2010 21:45:24 GMT -5 coldneck said:

It's interesting to note how many points are allocated to training centres.

Interesting?! That's one word for it. I hadn't had a chance to read that document, but I'm glad you linked to it. All this time I thought we were having a theoretical discussion in this thread, but it turns out it's not at all theoretical. You get 40 points for training and living full-time at a National Training Centre under the direction of the NTC coach. That's the same number of performance points you'd get for hitting THREE A standards (e.g. for the 1500m, 3:30.17). In comparison, if you medal at the Commonwealth Games this year, you'll get 20 points.

To it seems pretty clear that any distance runner who wants to get carded will HAVE to relocated to the National Training Centre in... oh yeah, there's isn't one. Too bad. If your speed is good enough, you can move down to middle distance and move to Victoria. Otherwise, no dice.

Anyway, the document Reid linked is an interesting read. The way they calculated the standards is really, really interesting -- taking the career progressions of all athletes finishing in the top 16 at the last three Olympics to determine how athletes typically progress to top 16. I'm assuming that explains some of the apparent differences between events -- e.g. the 5000 standards get quick at a very young age, presumably because recent results have been dominated by very young Africans. In comparison, the 1500 standards progress more slowly.

One point I think it's worth making again: AC is going to give out all its allocated cards, so the question isn't whether the standards are too hard. It's a question of how points are allocated, which is always going to cause debate.

And one other point we might want to bear in mind, from the document:

"This new alignment - identified last fall in the latest version of AC’s Strategic Plan - is fully supported by Sport Canada and is an absolute necessity to fulfill Own the Podium’s expectations. Without these changes to the criteria, AC risked losing more than 50% of its allotted cards."

[Steller]

AHutch...great article. I just had the time to read it. I should've just sent the link
www.universalsports.com/news/article/newsid=469708.html

instead of making my long post ..but lots of good stuff here:

1) poverty and the will to make money drives a lot of success (see how often Kebede refers to money...)
2) so many young athletes aspire to be the next Haile
3) many perform in spite of the system, not because of it

[SI]

Apr 22, 2010 21:45:09 GMT -5 ahutch said:

Anyone who thinks the structure of sport bureaucracy is all that stands between us and distance running dominance is delusional.

There are A LOT of people here who blame the Man for our woes. Not so sure I would go so far as to call them delusional although given the tone and passion of many of the posts, maybe you are right.

Apr 22, 2010 21:45:09 GMT -5 ahutch said:

But at the same time, there IS a sports bureaucracy in Canada, and it has to be structured somehow, so we might as well debate what the optimal structure is.

One could also make the case that since angels can dance on the head of a pin, we might as well debate how many can do it.

Apr 22, 2010 21:45:09 GMT -5 ahutch said:

And speaking of 10Ks, there's a thread on letsrun saying that Sully's going to run one...

Maybe we can hijack this thread. Is he healthy?

[ahutch]

Apr 23, 2010 4:11:37 GMT -5 SI said:

One could also make the case that since angels can dance on the head of a pin, we might as well debate how many can do it.

Ask Coldneck or Sully whether the debate is purely philosophical to them.

[krs1]

Apr 23, 2010 4:11:37 GMT -5 SI said:

Apr 22, 2010 21:45:09 GMT -5 ahutch said:

Anyone who thinks the structure of sport bureaucracy is all that stands between us and distance running dominance is delusional.

There are A LOT of people here who blame the Man for our woes. Not so sure I would go so far as to call them delusional although given the tone and passion of many of the posts, maybe you are right.



One could also make the case that since angels can dance on the head of a pin, we might as well debate how many can do it.

Apr 22, 2010 21:45:09 GMT -5 ahutch said:

And speaking of 10Ks, there's a thread on letsrun saying that Sully's going to run one...

Maybe we can hijack this thread. Is he healthy?

Depends on your definition of "healthy"

[krs1]

The debate is all too real. Without getting into the details I'll say that as athlete rep I have serious concerns over points allocation for carding and those concerns were voiced during the drafting of this document.

Apr 23, 2010 4:35:49 GMT -5 ahutch said:

Apr 23, 2010 4:11:37 GMT -5 SI said:

One could also make the case that since angels can dance on the head of a pin, we might as well debate how many can do it.

Ask Coldneck or Sully whether the debate is purely philosophical to them.

[SI]

Apr 23, 2010 8:00:01 GMT -5 krs1 said:

Depends on your definition of "healthy"

Right. Eventually the answer to that question is "I am alive. Could be worse."

[oldster]

Apr 22, 2010 22:23:00 GMT -5 pq said:

Apr 22, 2010 21:56:26 GMT -5 oldster said:

...Without these two broad social movements (progressivism and socialism), there would have been no decent public works or social programs (including health care), ...

They say Mussolini got the trains running on time...

In Chile (where I've been working frequently of late), most of the modern social and physical infrastructure is widely held to be due in large part to Pinochet's years in power. Their health care system is in many ways superior to ours (if not perhaps in the same degree of universal access of the same quality of service, since it is a two tier system, with lower quality public hospitals, and world class - and still reasonably priced - private hospitals and clinics).

Great public works and social programs can grow in a variety of political systems, some very autocratic.

Pq, please, please, do not tell me this is something you think you might be in position to debate me on. (Why me all the time, anyway? Like most of the thing you pester me on-- from youth development, to high school eligibility rules, to nutrition, and now to the carding system--, I doubt you have any real abiding interest in this anyway.) Whom did Pinochet replace, and by what means? And, given this, why do you imagine he might have wanted to put in place-- at the very least-- a couple of decent social programs? Where do you imagine a military dictator like Pinochet (or Musolini before him, or Bismark before both of them) have got his ideas when it came to social programs? Or, why would Hitler and the Nazis have adopted the name National Socialism to describe their distinctly anti-socialist movement?

[pq]

Apr 23, 2010 8:25:39 GMT -5 oldster said:

(1) Why me all the time, anyway?

(2) Like most of the thing you pester me on-- from youth development, to high school eligibility rules, ...

(3) why would Hitler and the Nazis have adopted the name National Socialism to describe their distinctly anti-socialist movement?

(1) Me me me me me me... it's not all about "you" Steve. It's about what's been written. If I see something I think is stupid, I'll call anybody on it.

(2) I've never debated you on youth development or high school eligibility rules. You're being paranoid, and getting me mixed up with some of the other voices in your head. Try to follow the ball...

(3) Are you seriously comparing Canadian socialist ideals, and the good things that have come forth (like our universal healthcare) with Hitler's form of national socialism? Really?

You advanced a notion that all good things come from acts of "the people" as a means of marginalizing centralized authorities' ability to also achieve good things. You tried (very poorly) to link the development of public works and social programs with decentralized movements by the people. I simply showed (quite handily, I might add) that it's possible for good things to also come from a central authority, even "evil" central authorities. Thus deflating your weak thesis. Now that it's settled that a central authority like AC (which, as it happens, is in place as a result of the normal operations of a democratic society) can indeed do good things (I mean, it's possible, not guaranteed), can we get back to the real issues in the thread?

[SI]

Apr 23, 2010 8:43:40 GMT -5 pq said:

can we get back to the real issues in the thread?

Like how does Sully define "healthy".