Chance to be a pro

[Day]

I Thought i'd get this message board going a bit, seems to be dead as of late.
I'm certain that many of you have thought about what it would be like to be a pro runner, dreamt of it i'm sure. A lot of you may have the mindset that its not possible due to money constraints and the lack of funding by gov't etc. So what are your ideas on how to do this, how to make that step from college or highschool to becoming sponsored, becoming fast? In order for most people to make that jump they need to become full time athletes but who can do that when they need to work in the meantime, often full time?
I guess i should ask first, how many people are willing to put thier careers on hold to make the sacrifices to have the chance to 'make it.'? If there was an opportunity for low cost housing living with a group of runners dedicated to making a canadian team, would you be willing to live with several people to keep that 100% focus and work as little as possible just to get by? Relocating yourself to do this? Be coached mostly by phone or otherwise?
Anyhow those are some thoughts to get the discussion going. I think the best way to become better is to get together for a common cause.
(is the Hansons program in the states like this?)

[jman]

This is a good topic, and there are not a lot of opportunities like that in canada as of right now. I think it would be popular if they created something like the hansons setup in an area where there is already a national sport center such as vancouver, victoria or guelph. I know it is tough, I have now made the step out of university and moved to vancouver from saskatoon to try to get as fast as i can. To support myself I have to work 35-40 hours a week, while trying to get a run in before work, and after.

[SI]

Paging Dr Matt...

[coldneck]

There's not too much doubt that you can be an elite runner and work 40 hours a week. I guess Matt's pager is off but he probably crushes 40 hours a week. You can see that guy training with his pager on and he's running the fastest he ever has.
If someone is trying to be world class (I'm sure there are different interpretations of world class) I don't think it would be wise to work full-time. There are many other things than running that a high calibre athlete has to do in order to achieve maximum results. You have to factor in things like recovery, travelling to the right meets and perhaps different training venues.
Its definitely harder to put a plan to work without decent support like a Hansons program or a National Endurance Centre. You basically have to live like a student and forgo a great paying job, but you have the rest of your life to work, right?

[PM]

I agree with Coldneck. There are many elite athletes that work full-time, but there are few world class runners who put in a full work week (40+ hrs).

And I think the original post was asking these elite athletes (including Matt) if they are willing to put their careers on hold to move onto the world stage of running. (But I could be wrong …)

Either way it is a tough leap for anyone to make!

[Cal]

I agree with Coldneck that it is a lot easier not working. And the extras that need to be taken into account when training at an elite level are extraordinary (not that I knowfirsthand). However, I do believe, even at the highest of levels you can work 30-40hrs per week and run very well. The difficulty is getting to the right meets. There lies the advantage. Reid you have made the sacrifices and went to the places to help you perform well. It has worked well for you. BuUt if you can place yourself in a company that is supportive in your endeavours, than I do believe running times of near world class can be achieved. I think our generation is a little soft (look at the lives of the great runners in the 60's-70's). They not only trained harder, but running was more of an elaborate hobby to them. My example, is that Clive Hamilton ran 28:30 (ish) and worked 40hrs+ per week in a factory, not the cushy desk jobs we all have. It is not the hrs worked per se, but the support network around you that is most important. Finally, I think that herein lies the real scope of this post: We need to genrate more local high performanace meets (and make people come here to race). We need to use each other to help the group. There is no reason taht we cannot have a sub 8:00 flat at U of T on the 22nd (I believe). There are enough bodies aroudn to make that work. It need to be a communal effort (eg: Hamilton High Performance 10km--just a little plug).That is my .02$.

[donniefromnextdoor]

28:30ish is great, i'll never run that fast......but just because he did it while working does not mean it was ideal.

clive hamilton never won an olympic medal, never set a world record. i guess what i am saying is that it depends on how much success the athlete wants.

i am sure clive hamilton would have run faster had he been able ot be a full time runner, and not have to do manual labour to get by.

i greatly admire candians who are able to run very fast while working 40 hour weeks, but just because they run well while doing so does not mean they are meeting their fastest times possible.

i'm not one to tell them they should give up money to runner faster, but I think it is important to remeber that just because one runs fast while working, it does not mean they are competing as well as they could. there is more to being one of the worlds greatest runners than just putting in the workouts. i have no doubt it is possible to put in 40 hours a week plus do all your miles and workouts. but some aspect of proper recovery, strength training, nutrition, etc would undoubtably have to take a back seat. sometimes that could be the only difference between being a borderline national team member and being a top 15 ranked athlete in the world.

it all comes down to: would you rather retire with a 28 minute 10k PB who made a full salary starting at age 22, or reitre with a 27 min 10k PB who started working full time at age 32?

there is no right answer, for myself the answer is obvious, but to each their own.

[SI]

donniefromnextdoor said:

clive hamilton never won an olympic medal, never set a world record.

I realize that there are exceptions to every rule but consider Steve Jones then.

[Day]

There are definitely exceptions to rules, there are people who will do great things under whatever circumstances, for some they may need the outside life to keep them stimulated, or to keep them sane by balancing thier lives out.
As far as bringing canada up in the sport of distance running i think we need to start up some sort of centralization, of not just elites but of focused individuals. Of course if we get more people running times to make national teams we will, by whatever statistical laws begin to have people running world class times. Whether the individual times come from people who work full time or from people who need more of a life focus on running it doesnt matter. But i would say the majority of people with perhaps less talent will need the aid of centres/support etc. So how do we go about doing that?
Before i go any further, how many people are are that crazy about running? There are 4 and a half years to the next olympics, how many of you are willing to put your lives on hold for the next 4 years? Maybe i'm getting ahead of myself here assuming there are a lot of people out there dreaming. Maybe there is not enough collective confidence here?
I see there are plenty of people checking out this thread, lets hear your thoughts, there has to be more ideas out there than this, even if radical, thats probably what we need.

[Bubba]

A few points...
I wouldn't consider it "putting your life on hold." If you're not working full-time in your field you may be putting your professional career on hold but certainly not your life, in my opinion. There's more to life than making money.

<-- Kasja Berqvist is hot.

You can make a go at working 40 hours a week. I would think 20-30 hours a week would be ideal. That way you still have income and experience in the workforce as well as ample time to train and stuff.


Steve Jones did some training in boulder which leads me to believe he wasn't working full-time all the time. He did like working as an air-force mechanic as it gave him an outlet from running and he was an animal.

Compound interest is great but it doesn't help as much if your not working in your mid-twenties. There's no question you lose out financially unless you're Alan Webb.

[SI]

Bubba said:

He did like working as an air-force mechanic as it gave him an outlet from running and he was an animal.

I thought, at least at one point in his running career, he had some kind of tough manual labour job.

[Ronald]

I think bubba is completely right. you are not really putting your life on hold. you are living your life the best way you know how, and are having some fun. I completely agree!

[Day]

i guess that was a poor choice i words, something more like, pausing the development of the career you will hold after you are finished running competitively. I also mean, willing to 'lose out finacially'
There is most definitely more to life than money thats for sure, but unfortunately thats whats holding a lot of us back.
You guys suggest that it is possible to work and attain the highest level of performance but i just cant see it that way i guess. For someone who is not insanely talented like Emilie Mondor i think it would be too difficult to work a job and still have time to train twice a day, plus stretching, ice/heat, cold baths, cooking, strength work, strides, and most of all putting your legs up and relaxing, even going for walks to recover, and of course getting ~10hrs sleep a night.

According to Lore of Running, Jones was in the airforce till he resigned in 88 after running a slow 2:14 in boston. Moving to boulder at that point things picked up again for one last fast marathon in new york then didnt do much after that.

[ireid]

RiseUp said:

According to Lore of Running, Jones was in the airforce till he resigned in 88 after running a slow 2:14 in boston. Moving to boulder at that point things picked up again for one last fast marathon in new york then didnt do much after that.

I guess running a 2:10:06 at the 1992 Toronto Shopper's Drug Mart Marathon doesn't count as doing "much after that", at least when your PB is a former WR 2:07:13. Too bad the Canadian record is only 2:10:09.

For the 'back in the day' folk, have a read through "A cold, clear day" which details former WR holder Buddy Edelen's move to Britain, working as a low paid teacher, and cranking out big miles and workouts.

More recently, Rod de Haven made the 2000 Olympics while working full time in a career job.

[SI]

Ian said:

For the 'back in the day' folk, have a read through "A cold, clear day" which details former WR holder Buddy Edelen's move to Britain, working as a low paid teacher, and cranking out big miles and workouts.

Matt Norminton is racking up some pretty good performances while doing precisely the same thing. Arguing against myself here but I've always thought that teaching was as close to a university environment as one could get. NO OFFENCE TO ANY TEACHER TYPES OUT THERE. There are a lot of former reasonably good runners in that profession.

[Chris Moulton]

An Intersting interview with a guy who is doing this very thing although not quite a world class level, there aren't many 28:30, 2:17 marathoners floating around the great white north.

www.mensracing.com/athletes/interviews/brianclas.html

A few excerpts

MR: How have you been able to balance commuting, working full time, and training?
BC: It's worked out as well as I could have imagined it working out. Really, I've only had to force myself to get up just a little bit earlier in the morning... I run about 100 miles a week when I'm preparing for a marathon, so I would normally run in the morning and then do another run in the evening. Or, if I could, on my easy days, just do one full run in the morning before I go to work. So it was just a matter of adjusting my schedule to get up a little earlier. I work pretty regular hours, 9:30 to 6:30, or something like that, I'm usually home by 7:30. Being out in Connecticut actually helps me [do the high-intensity runs] because I was able to get to a track after I got home... Normally I'd do my workouts in Central Park and just do them by time, but I was able to do more specific workouts, being able to get to a track out here, so it actually worked out pretty well.

MR: Right out of college you trained with the Enclave down in D.C. When you moved back to New York, were you making a decision to focus more on your career in addition to your running?
BC: Yeah, I kind of wanted to do both... Life takes you in funny directions and you kind of have to follow those things to the best of your ability. You kind of say, 'At this time, I'll make this decision and I'll go with it.' Ever since I left the Enclave, that's [what] my philosophy has been, as far as my running career, and my career outside of running. I don't make any money running unless I win prize money or something like that. I don't have a shoe contract. The New York AC pays for my expenses, my travel, and supports me from that side of things.

MR: So you don't lose money on running...
BC: Exactly. I'm not spending money out of pocket to go to races or anything like that, but I'm not at the level where I'm able to solely support myself on running. I know that's a fact, and I know that I'm going to have to do something else to supplement whatever income I make with my running career. So I try to balance it as best I can. Most of the time, I find a job that's pretty compromising. If it comes down to something where I need to spend a little bit more time focusing on my training — like I have over the past couple months, like I have this year, getting ready for the Trials — my employers are usually pretty understanding of that... And it works both ways, I'll be flexible with my training if I can, to work around what my responsibilities are at work.

[coldneck]

That was a good article on Brian Clas...

Getting a job that supports your training is also very important...

MensRacing.com: You're taking the week leading up to the Trials off from work, what's the logic behind that?

Brian Clas: I just wanted to kind of have a low-stress week leading up to the Trials. With the commute and everything else, I just would rather relax here and not have to worry about getting on a train and going into work, those kind of things, when I'm trying to get focused on running the big race this weekend.

[oncearunner]

One key thing I noticed in that interview was that he doesn't have to pay to travel to and compete in meets. I'm not sure how many, if any, have that luxury in Canada (minus the top sponsored ppl) but it sure could make a difference if you're living ona shoe string budget and you have someone who will help out with a couple hundred bucks for going to big meets.

[brad_ofsaa]

Just believe and endure-

[Catts]

brad_ofsaa said:

Just believe and endure-

maybe if i believe enough my lanlord won't take the $400 rent out of my account this month.

[Bomba]

^%*^&*% martin..i'm a teacher.....

On a more serious note i think that this whole thing is BS. Yeah training full tiem is easier (I'd love to run at 9 or 10 rather than 6), but if u want it you'll do it.....no making excuses....just busting your ass. Bill Rodgers( among others) ran some of his best times while working. It can be done, but it just requires a little more determination, discipline and organization....

[SI]

Bomba said:

^%*^&*% martin..i'm a teacher.....

Case closed.

[Catts]

Bomba said:

i'm a teacher.....

scariest thing i've ever read.

[Day]

Mark,
From a guy thats been in the sport for quite some time, what do you personally think needs to be done? are we just on the whole not dedicated enough, not determined enough and not organized enough? Or are things just fine right now...

There is no denying the fact that the less energy spent on things other than training means more spent on recovery and training. So if on the spectrum of talent we have more energy devoted to training and rest we will get a greater number of athletes making better performances, and sure enough with more good performances and performers we will get more great performances and performers.

I'm sure you've considered this so why your current position?

[Bomba]

Hell if i know what should be done..... But here are a few thoughts......

1) This sport has had its moments, but let's face it, it ain't hockey...it ain't even curling in regards to popularity. That makes it a very tough sell. " You can't sell what people don't want". But essentially u need ot get some kind of corporate support.....who is responsible for that....well I guess the answer is everyone from the individual, club, governing bodies, etc.....but I am sure many sincere and hardworking people have tried with little success
2) if it's a tough sell, then essentially things start at a grassroots level
3) I've been lucky in that i live in a region of Canada where there is good competition and training partners, but for the most part i train on my own (as do many others....)
4) I agree that training full time is optimal for most, but it ain't realistic.
5) so if it ain't realistic then at least recognize that one won't be able to do it full time
6) If u can't do it full time then be prepared to live like a poor man
7) Now there may come a time when u become good enough that u won't have to live like a poor man and can train full time (see Emilie Mondor)
8) Seeing as I've never been good enough to do this full time, I also feel that many want to be full time right now. Well since i've been around a long time (too long) my perception is that people want to be pro right now amd have the money right now. Want the truth....u won't be a pro (with a few exceptions) unless u are willing to live like a poor man until u get good enough. So one is in a Catch-22....
9) Also being a somewhat historian of the sport....the amazing athletes of the 60 and 70's weren't making a killing from the sport. They busted their asses and maybe made a few bucks off under the table payments, but i doubt it was enough to make a career of.... So my question is why do people feel they deserve to be paid or supported before they reach a high level? You got to pay your dues.....
10) and last but not least.....if u get good, everything else will just somewhat fall into place (see Leah Pells in 96 and more recently Mondor)....and how u gonna do this...sacrifice and busting your ass.....

My 2 cents...plus i am sure a few more thoughts will enter my warped head....




"From a guy thats been in the sport for quite some time, what do you personally think needs to be done? are we just on the whole not dedicated enough, not determined enough and not organized enough? Or are things just fine right now...

There is no denying the fact that the less energy spent on things other than training means more spent on recovery and training. So if on the spectrum of talent we have more energy devoted to training and rest we will get a greater number of athletes making better performances, and sure enough with more good performances and performers we will get more great performances and performers.

I'm sure you've considered this so why your current position?

[Day]

Here's the discussion i was looking for. I'm definitely am on the same wavelength as u mark. I do realize the reality of having to live like a poor man, but i'm looking for possibilites to help each other.
What i mean is, wouldnt it be benificial for a group of would be pro's(if you will) to shack up in a house, live like poor people together, benifit from lower average living expenses and benefit from the training environment. A still greater centralization of focused runners. It's just an idea i had, and wondered if other were thinking of the problem too. Perhaps there are not enough people willing to sacrifice. I prodded earlier for people to speak up if they are they willing to make big sacrifices, maybe they just arent out there.

I suppose if we didn't have the option of being poor or not, like most africans, we wouldnt have a problem with having to live like a 'poor man'
couldnt think of how to put that differently but it should be somewhat understandable.

[Bomba]

one big problem I see is that people don't want to leave their coaches.

The runners of the 70's (at least in the US) had few choices. They had no choice but to gravitate to the few coaches who worked post collegiately (see Frank Shorter moving to Florida to train with Jack bachelor, but on the other side the Boston area had some phenomenal runners ie Rodgers, Fleming, Sevene, Thomas, etc... but most were from the area and gravitated around Bill Squires). So if anyone even had some semblance of a dream they moved.

Nowdays we have various centres and athletes become very comfortable with their coaches. IMHO this is very beneficial, but it also has a few drawbacks, mainly that athletes don't want to move from their coaches who have worked with them. But then addage of whether it's the coach who produces the athlete or vise versa comes into play. For egs I doubt whether Reid would leave DST right now considering his steady progression over the year (why hurt what is working).

I the end the athlete has to take the chance. Matt Johnstone went to Australia last year and it worked well for him based upon his most recent results. But ultimately it took a more serious approach on his side (after living with Craig Mottram and seeing a more serious side to the sport) to achieve those successes. It wasn't some magic solution. He simply began putting in the work that was required (and done primarily on hos own).

I remember last yr at WXC and mentioned that AI wasn't sure about some aspects of my fitnes becuase I had been doing some training sessions on my own ( I was referring to something else, but it was misinterpreted) . Pretty much the rest of the sht course guys looked at me like 'yeah so what if u train on your own...so do we".

What does that mean to me..... well if it takes moving into a house with abunch of guys to commit, the do it...if it takes eating a jar of peanut butter then do it....it's the approach that counts, and each person has to find out what works.... That doesn't mean athletes should go and train by themselves, but rather that they need to 'lay it on the line' first

[MattMc]

I fully agree with Bomba that if you want it badly enough you will find a way to train, regardless of the situation.

I think that it would be great if every sub-30 runner out of college could focus fully on running, but that's not going to happen. People should realize that while it's not the ideal, there are many jobs out there that allow one to train at the very high level required to make improvements in running. There are good, but by no means ideal training situations in Guelph, Toronto, Windsor, K-W, Victoria and Vancouver for people who want to work and train. If you want to do it, find a cheap apartment close to work, save every nickel and dime for that plane ticket out West and be darn sure that you are ready to roll when you get there. It has been said before, but I will say it again, aside from a handful of runners (I certainly am not one of them) very high level competition can be found in Ontario, especially on the roads. Andy Hahn ran 1:05:30, placed 7th and didn't win a dime at a local 1/2 marathon in the fall!

The public quickly grows weary of able-bodied young athletes holding out their hands wanting something from the government when there are so many other programs more in need of funding.

Some sacrifices do have to be made-- social, economic etc, but if you structure things around running it can be done. The only way I have been able to train hard and improve to the (sub-elite at best) level I am at now is because my coach, teammates, family, wife and friends have been extrememly supportive. I live close to work so I don't have a commute, and I wake up darn early some days so I can run before work. I took a while to adjust to training at funny hours, but after a while it feels like any other training session.

The bottom line is that I don't think that a lack of full time training opportunities is holding us back from being world beaters, it's the lack of a large number of talented commited runners training at a high level. Whether they are working 0-30 or 80 hours a week is largely irrelevant. Maybe in today's instant gratification world, the only way a large number of people will make such sacrifices is if they can get paid full time to do so.

Perhaps the esoteric, inherent satisfaction of improving and running fast no longer cuts it for the masses. Finishing a marathon is now seen as an accomplishment second only to Olympic Gold. If one can get the respect of others by just finishing, why do anything more?

[davidson]

Interesting conversation no doubt, definitely in the spirit of why this message board was set up.

I'm not exactly sure what a solution would be to any problems posed here. Though I can add some information to the large amount that is being discussed. A house of runners is definitely an ideal situation. A lot of the guys out here live together (most of the 4x800 guys for example), and I think just living with other athletes is a huge boost to anyone. I know how hard it can be to run when no one you live with seems to understand that you just don't skip days when you're supposed to run. That in itself, however, would probably not make a difference as if someone wants to train, they will.

Money is a non-issue really. The government has way larger priorities (spending money on big business, cutting education, cutting health care, fighting amongst each other), and many things that need the money more that we athletes do (poor, disabled, homeless, unemployed). We don't need money, nor do we really deserve it. Sure, Canadians may be able to gather a sense of pride every 4 years if we were a track powerhouse, but other than the olympics no one would care.

If any change is to be made, the best course of action would likely be to promote the sport at the grassroots level (elementary school, middle school, and even to an extent, highschool). You get kids excited about track there, you get their parents excited (in some cases). This is a hard task, however, when you look at the environment of many schools lately. I know in Ontario there has been much "job action" which has really killed track and cross country seasons at the highschool level many times. With increasing cuts to education it is unlikely that this trend will reverse, and those provinces which haven't had these problems (are there any??) will likely develop them (ahh.. good old Sociology ).

Even if we somehow made an impact at that level, the results would not be felt for many years. I think the end of OAC in Ontario has actually done good things for CIS sports. I think a minimal impact will be seen this year, but when times drop across the board, more of the "faster" athletes will be lured to the Canadian system (or rather, they won't be lured to the American system).

Also, Canada is not a sport-centred nation, much like the US is. We do not have 70 000 plus seat stadiums (the U of Washington one is really nice), and no one really cares about our University sports.

My experience in Victoria has given me a good perspective on these training groups. There are a lot of fast runners out here and it seems to be a good thing. Everyone feeds off one another.

I haven't really discussed where athletes would get money, but there are many places top end runners(those who run relatively well and train relatively hard that your average runner) could get jobs. Running stores are always options. I really don't have an answer for this though.

I think the bottom line is that if someone wants to do something, they will find away. The trouble with that is that lately you have to be really dedicated to do what you want in today's society.

That was a little long. I tend to ramble... sorry about that.

[davidson]

SI said:

I've always thought that teaching was as close to a university environment as one could get. NO OFFENCE TO ANY TEACHER TYPES OUT THERE.

You're right. Both environments are very stressful....

There is more flexibility however, (i.e. you have to mark, plan lessons, etc - but you can choose when to do that).