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Post by justlikepre on Dec 13, 2009 11:14:37 GMT -5
Ok so I know the indoor season is to get people back to running shorter and faster, but i keep hearing if u run too fast in the indoor season, you will burn out before OFSAA track. If so, whats the point of going to races to run like shit.
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Post by HHH on Dec 13, 2009 12:39:45 GMT -5
I'm not a big fan of indoors but when you don't have any races for Dec/Jan/Feb/Mar, it can be hard to stay focused. It's nice to have something to break up the long winter, even if you run like crap.
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Post by lukesteer93 on Dec 13, 2009 12:57:14 GMT -5
whats the point? the spirirt of friendly competition!
i agree with HHH though. even a race every 4 or 6 weeks can just give you something to work towards, something for you to test your fitness base at, that sort of thing.
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Post by BillyWalsh on Dec 13, 2009 13:27:37 GMT -5
The best runners in the world will occasionally run indoors. There are several large meets around the world that attracts top talent. Check out the Millrose Games results and see who has run that in the past. Most mid-d or distance runners use indoors in order to gauge their fitness and see how training is going.
So yes, run a few indoor meets. You won't be spent by OFSAA. Just keep in mind the main goal is not until June.
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Post by journeyman on Dec 13, 2009 14:20:53 GMT -5
Indoor season is for those not mentally tough enough to get through the winter without a race, and who are not physically tough enough to train outdoors.
That's my opinion. I know it is not shared by all.
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pmac
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Post by pmac on Dec 13, 2009 14:45:15 GMT -5
At this point we do not participate in CIS indoor track, although this year we will run at the QSSF meet because it is at McGill, in Montreal. The reason for this is primarily administrative at the university level: Concordia is currently undergoing a significant facilities expansion (part of which is Le Gym, our downtown base of operations) and so new programs are on hold. As the xc program grows, however, I'm confident that the results will allow us to make a case, and with some fund raising in partnership with the Athletics Dept, we hope to enter a team in CIS indoor track in the not too distance future (3-5 years). For now, this may be viewed positively by some multisport athletes who wish to focus on swimming or spinning in the winter. We can accommodate that sort of thing. That said, one of the facility projects is The Stinger Dome: essentially a dome over a soccer field. We plan to do some training here this winter, as well as work with the Fleur-de-Lys track club at Centre Claude Robillard's indoor track. So we do have an indoor track season, we just can't qualify for CIS. Yet. Check out www.stingers.ca to see the facilities. ... |
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Post by ronb on Dec 13, 2009 19:22:00 GMT -5
Indoor season is for those not mentally tough enough to get through the winter without a race, and who are not physically tough enough to train outdoors. That's my opinion. I know it is not shared by all. Several of our best ever performances at the World Cross Country Championships (long course), were achieved by athletes who used a few Indoor Races, up to and including the CIS Indoor Championships, as intense training/racing efforts to prepare for World Cross. Including Paul McCloy who won the CI Indoors in both the 1500 and 5000 two weeks before finishing 16th at the World Cross Country, Debbie Scott who also won both the 1500 and 3000 at CI's, two weeks before finishing 8th at the World Cross, Brenda Shackleton who set the long-standing CI 3000 record and shared in the long-standing CI 4 x 800 record, also two weeks before finishing 21st at World Cross, and there are many others I am sure... JL, your statement is total nonsense. A little bit of Indoors, taken in context and within a solid Annual Plan, is just fine, and fun as well. |
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B-rads
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Post by B-rads on Dec 13, 2009 22:45:42 GMT -5
how can you be burnt out by the time ofsaa rolls around from running fast indoors for the indoor season? there is a whole bunch of time to rest during the break between the indoor and outdoor track seasons
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Post by oldster on Dec 14, 2009 13:56:01 GMT -5
If by "indoor season" we mean a full slate of races similar to that which might comprise an outdoor or X-C season, then I'm with Journeyman (although not necessarily with his explanation of why some people run a lot of indoor races, which I think was tongue-in-cheek anyway).
Particularly if we're talking about teenage runners, there are far better uses of time and energy than racing indoors, particularly when the other two season already contain far too much racing. One or two races with no expectations is one thing; a full set of races culminating in yet another age-class championship is counterproductive. The NCAA sometimes comes in for criticism for racing athletes frequently over 3 seasons, yet NCAA athletes are all 18-22. There are clubs in this province in which kids as young as 12-14 seem to be racing at least as much as the typical NCAA athlete! The NCAA earns some of this criticism; but, then, it IS also providing athletes with free post-secondary education. And perhaps the problems is not so much all the racing in the NCAA as all the racing ON TOP OF so much age-class racing going in.
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Post by livefree on Dec 14, 2009 13:58:03 GMT -5
correct me if im wrong.. once upon a time was there an ofsaa indoor?  ? i recall seeing banners in my gym for this.. |
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Post by oldster on Dec 14, 2009 14:17:06 GMT -5
correct me if im wrong.. once upon a time was there an ofsaa indoor? ? i recall seeing banners in my gym for this.. Yes, there was. It used to precede the old Toronto Star Indoor Games in Maple Leaf Gardens. However, it was a one-off thing-- no series of qualifying meets. |
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Post by powerboy on Dec 14, 2009 15:36:58 GMT -5
As usual,Ron you are right on.Oldster is also right about too many 12yr olds etc, but the main reason to run indoors is that it is fun and keeps one motivated.Moreover, it is actually unpleasant outdoors in most areas in March-May and kids (and senior athletes too) need the challenge of racing now and then and in good conditions.
I think our sport would drop off another 25% if we tried to convince people that they should only race May-August.
Actually, our CIS system works very well for two peaks-one in March and one in July-August.
The NCAA system deserves some criticism because outdoor starts the week after indoors, so there is almost no chance to rebuild, but overall, indoor track is an important component of the track year. The trick is to not overdo or overweigh its importance.
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cerruty
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"Great things take time, Impossible things take a little bit longer."
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Post by cerruty on Dec 15, 2009 0:13:30 GMT -5
It's fun.
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Post by journeyman on Dec 15, 2009 0:19:13 GMT -5
If by "indoor season" we mean a full slate of races similar to that which might comprise an outdoor or X-C season, then I'm with Journeyman (although not necessarily with his explanation of why some people run a lot of indoor races, which I think was tongue-in-cheek anyway). That is how I took it, and yes, I was being purposefully provocative. At this point we do not participate in CIS indoor track, although this year we will run at the QSSF meet because it is at McGill, in Montreal. The reason for this is primarily administrative at the university level: Concordia is currently undergoing a significant facilities expansion (part of which is Le Gym, our downtown base of operations) and so new programs are on hold. As the xc program grows, however, I'm confident that the results will allow us to make a case, and with some fund raising in partnership with the Athletics Dept, we hope to enter a team in CIS indoor track in the not too distance future (3-5 years). For now, this may be viewed positively by some multisport athletes who wish to focus on swimming or spinning in the winter. We can accommodate that sort of thing. That said, one of the facility projects is The Stinger Dome: essentially a dome over a soccer field. We plan to do some training here this winter, as well as work with the Fleur-de-Lys track club at Centre Claude Robillard's indoor track. So we do have an indoor track season, we just can't qualify for CIS. Yet. Check out www.stingers.ca to see the facilities. ... My goal of having a team entered in the CIS indoor track circuit is based on the demand of the market. It is very difficult to recruit kids if you "only" have a cross country program. I would use my indoor track program--for distance runners--judiciously, as a tool for improving over whatever the primary event of that athlete might be. I don't know anyone whose primary event is 600m or 1000m for one thing--both are useful training distances for 400m, 800m and 1500m though. And indoor 3000m races are useful training distances for an outdoor 5k. If your primary race distance is a 10k, I really don't know why you would want to run indoor track. |
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Post by journeyman on Dec 15, 2009 0:25:16 GMT -5
Indoor season is for those not mentally tough enough to get through the winter without a race, and who are not physically tough enough to train outdoors. That's my opinion. I know it is not shared by all. Several of our best ever performances at the World Cross Country Championships (long course), were achieved by athletes who used a few Indoor Races, up to and including the CIS Indoor Championships, as intense training/racing efforts to prepare for World Cross. Including Paul McCloy who won the CI Indoors in both the 1500 and 5000 two weeks before finishing 16th at the World Cross Country, Debbie Scott who also won both the 1500 and 3000 at CI's, two weeks before finishing 8th at the World Cross, Brenda Shackleton who set the long-standing CI 3000 record and shared in the long-standing CI 4 x 800 record, also two weeks before finishing 21st at World Cross, and there are many others I am sure... JL, your statement is total nonsense. A little bit of Indoors, taken in context and within a solid Annual Plan, is just fine, and fun as well. Easy there Ronnie! I was just messing around. "A little bit of Indoors, taken in context and within a solid Annual Plan" is just fine, yes. Racing every weekend along with 2-3 hard sessions per week on a hard surface is a recipe for disaster. If you manage to get through that kind of program alive, good luck with an outdoor season because you will have missed some valuable base-building time. One or two track sessions a week (and some other quality work done outside) plus one race a month (or two if something good comes up) is probably enough, wouldn't you say? |
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oldbones
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And so it goes ...
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Post by oldbones on Dec 15, 2009 9:55:18 GMT -5
The perspective of my old track club was that the indoor season is a rest and recoup period in the yearly plan (XC and outdoors obviously being the twin peaks of the plan - macrocycle).
Stay healthly and have fun was the message (two or three races were in the plan to measure fitness). Parry Sound being the hot spot for snow that it is gave us the opportunity to get outside in winter and enjoy winter ... many runners may see winter as a negative (run away and hide type stuff).
Take a pointer from Mr. Woodfine and get the xc skis on or snowshoes (or yak tracks). Going back to your aerobic base over winter is doable especially if you have nice snowmobile trails to run on (nice low impact but pay attention not to stray off the path).
Injury prevention and keeping a sharp mental focus (knowing when to recharge and not getting stale) are key to long-term running excellence and participation.
Suppliment the indoor with the our Canadian outdoor!
I come back to this point time and time again (acknowledging that you do indeed have to run to improve running) but a multi-mode approach (swim -aquarunning-, bike, run, ski, snowshoe, yoga, weights, ...) will improve your running over the long haul.
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Post by journeyman on Dec 15, 2009 16:15:44 GMT -5
Wait, oldbones, are you saying you don't have to hammer track workouts and race every weekend January-March in order to have a good summer track season? Shocked! I am shocked!
Sorry if I'm going overboard with the sarcasm, but I just don't understand the fascination with indoor season. I want to tear my hair out when I hear runners say "I want to run fast indoors this year." WHY? I mean, I don't think the goal should be to run slow, but why not take it as oldbones suggests, as a time to build base and recharge? I guess the answer is "to qualify for CIS" and that's reasonable enough, as long as it's taken in the full view of a long-term plan (i.e. 4-5 years where there is an indoor focus, but not at the expense of what might come after, if the athlete is interested in going further than just a CIS career).
It would be kind of fun and interesting if the CIS replaced the indoor season with an outdoor season. It's not like it matters to the NCAA that their season extends past the school year. The CIS is probably the only thing keeping indoor track afloat in Canada. It is certainly understandable to have a big indoor goal if you are running for a school, but I have to insist that it would come at the expense of an outdoor season in that case, and not as a good way to prepare for it.
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gtown
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Post by gtown on Dec 15, 2009 17:37:58 GMT -5
I do indoors for the same reason I do pretty much everything else in my life: I enjoy it. I think we may be losing sight of this a lot of the time. Indoors is straight up fun. It is made more fun by the CIS having a full indoor season. My long term plan for running is to keep having fun. I would suspect that runners not having fun with the sport is to blame for far more burnouts than indoor season itself. Just thought I'd throw it out there.
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Post by ronb on Dec 15, 2009 19:14:12 GMT -5
Several of our best ever performances at the World Cross Country Championships (long course), were achieved by athletes who used a few Indoor Races, up to and including the CIS Indoor Championships, as intense training/racing efforts to prepare for World Cross. Including Paul McCloy who won the CI Indoors in both the 1500 and 5000 two weeks before finishing 16th at the World Cross Country, Debbie Scott who also won both the 1500 and 3000 at CI's, two weeks before finishing 8th at the World Cross, Brenda Shackleton who set the long-standing CI 3000 record and shared in the long-standing CI 4 x 800 record, also two weeks before finishing 21st at World Cross, and there are many others I am sure... JL, your statement is total nonsense. A little bit of Indoors, taken in context and within a solid Annual Plan, is just fine, and fun as well. Easy there Ronnie! I was just messing around. "A little bit of Indoors, taken in context and within a solid Annual Plan" is just fine, yes. Racing every weekend along with 2-3 hard sessions per week on a hard surface is a recipe for disaster. If you manage to get through that kind of program alive, good luck with an outdoor season because you will have missed some valuable base-building time. One or two track sessions a week (and some other quality work done outside) plus one race a month (or two if something good comes up) is probably enough, wouldn't you say? No stress here, John. I was fairly sure you were messing, so I just messed a little back  Here's how the December to March period used to look, out here. Of course "out here" is in Victoria, where there is no Indoor Track (thankfully), and a lot of days when you can do a solid Outdoor workout, even in the "dead of Winter". So December was a month of mostly easy running, recovering from any hardcore Fall cross-country, handling the academics well with December exams, getting ready for Christmas, travelling home (for some) to be with family, and generally just running lots, but easily. Rare exceptions would be those who were racing International Indoor Meets in January, so there would be a few workouts in there, but not too much... January, with a lot of individual variations, we might hit one indoor race in Edmonton, but usually just run a fast 8K at the PIH/Pioneer race, on the 2nd Sunday of January (winners and fastest times at this event are posted on the PIH website, and includes a significant number of our top distance runners). Training weeks for those running Indoors could include a Track Workout on Tuesday. Nothing too intense - more just date-pace running, with some accelerations, and getting in touch with light-speed (weather dependent, to some extent). Thursday might be a strong surge/pickup in the warm up run, for example, 15 minutes easy, 5 minutes transition, then 10 - 20 minutes of fastish running. Maybe some power hills (not over 10 seconds), strides, and some more relaxed running to follow. Saturday could be a strong to very strong tempo run, again with about 15 minutes easy warmup run, and anywhere from 25 to 40 minutes fast to very fast, as you are feeling, and then some easy cooldown running.... Sunday - longish, easy run. Other days and morning runs --- easy recovery type of runs. Cross training, for those with time, energy, motivation, could include some pool running, and/or cycling... No marathoners in the group at that time, so weekly mileage topped out at 90-100, plus the cross-training hours for some... So really only, 1 anaerobic session per week. Lots of good aerobic work, and gradually getting in touch with a bit of speed. February - 1st weekend was the National Cross Country Trials, which we hosted. So, all of our top runners raced it, and those who weren't ready, or were preparing for something in the 400/800 range, helped out with the Event. Then there was perhaps an All Comers Indoor Meet in Edmonton, or the Indoor Nationals on the 3rd weekend of February, or some were running Ekiden Relays in Japan, or International Indoor Meets. Canada West Indoors at the end of February, and then 2 weeks later, the CIS Indoors, and then 2 weeks later, the World Cross Country Championships for some... In summary, maybe 3-4 Indoor Races, a very small amount of "specific" training, and lots of good aerobic fitness towards the Outdoor season. Sorry I went on too long, but some might be interested.... |
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Post by journeyman on Dec 15, 2009 21:11:42 GMT -5
Victoria sounds nice.
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Post by journeyman on Dec 15, 2009 21:14:41 GMT -5
I do indoors for the same reason I do pretty much everything else in my life: I enjoy it. I think we may be losing sight of this a lot of the time. Indoors is straight up fun. It is made more fun by the CIS having a full indoor season. My long term plan for running is to keep having fun. I would suspect that runners not having fun with the sport is to blame for far more burnouts than indoor season itself. Just thought I'd throw it out there. There needs to be a balance between doing what's fun because you enjoy it and ensuring you can continue doing fun things long-term. I think that over-racing and over-training indoors, even if you think it is fun, will cause some not fun things to happen later. Racing is fun, but we don't race every day or even every week, right? |
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gtown
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Post by gtown on Dec 15, 2009 21:34:50 GMT -5
Of course, it's like being a child with a toy. You're gonna get tired of it if you do nothing but play with it non-stop. Our toy is the track. The fun-not fun equilibrium is found and all in the universe is well. Are we really discussing what this equilibrium is, on a messageboard, for everyone in distance running? Seriously? The bottom line is that it's different for each person and the point of indoor season is exactly the same point as xc and outdoor.
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Post by journeyman on Dec 15, 2009 21:47:40 GMT -5
The bottom line is that it's different for each person and the point of indoor season is exactly the same point as xc and outdoor. Actually, I think we are having the discussion because the point of each is decidedly different. There are not the same end goals for indoors as there are for xc and outdoor track. Aside from the goal of having fun all the time, the three seasons are quite different. Cross country has a strong scholastic and participation interest. Many people do xc and nothing else, because of school. There is a certain segment of the running population who fancy themselves "cross country specialists." For those who really want to get into it, mountain running provides a similar challenge during the summer. European xc season runs from November until March. Outdoor track is the "core" of the sport. This part of the sport is narrower in one sense as for distance runners, there is less participation focus, more competition focus. Here we don't have "outdoor track specialists" but we have event groups. For those who would like to participate for their fun, rather than compete for it, road racing is similar to xc and takes place in the summer. Indoor track is limited as a training tool for the competitive outdoor stream. It is a means, not an end. There is a scholastic aspect, but it is competitive, not participatory. There are no "indoor track specialists." Indoor track is secondary, while cross country and outdoor track are primary. Some might argue that cross country is also secondary, but there are a good number of folks who would disagree. I don't know anyone who thinks of indoor track as being their "primary" season. |
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gtown
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Post by gtown on Dec 15, 2009 22:12:01 GMT -5
"Aside from the goal of having fun" -- as identified earlier, I see having fun as the point of indoors. I believe a large number of people would agree.
"There are no indoor track specialists" and "I don't know anyone who thinks of indoor track as being their primary season" -- off the top of my head: Robin Bourke (Guelph). My memory may be a little fuzzy but I believe he didn't train in the summer, used xc to build for indoors, and ripped it up in the 600m.
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Post by journeyman on Dec 16, 2009 21:27:15 GMT -5
"Aside from the goal of having fun" -- as identified earlier, I see having fun as the point of indoors. I believe a large number of people would agree. "There are no indoor track specialists" and "I don't know anyone who thinks of indoor track as being their primary season" -- off the top of my head: Robin Bourke (Guelph). My memory may be a little fuzzy but I believe he didn't train in the summer, used xc to build for indoors, and ripped it up in the 600m. To each his own, then. As long as he has fun. |
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Post by whatsyourmiletime on Dec 20, 2009 22:20:36 GMT -5
with out indoor we have to run in the snow! make sense to every one if theirs snow out side....do it inside |
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F.T
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Post by F.T on Dec 21, 2009 12:36:50 GMT -5
with out indoor we have to run in the snow! make sense to every one if theirs snow out side....do it inside wtf? no. I'm assuming most people train for the indoor season by running outside? or am i the only one! Having to do base training on an indoor track would cause me to lose interest very quickly |
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miletime
New Member
all hail HAILE!!!!
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Post by miletime on Dec 21, 2009 14:02:54 GMT -5
with out indoor we have to run in the snow! make sense to every one if theirs snow out side....do it inside wtf? no. I'm assuming most people train for the indoor season by running outside? or am i the only one! Having to do base training on an indoor track would cause me to lose interest very quickly i agree, running 40 laps on a 200m indoor track would not be fun at all. The snow and cold air makes everything that much harder and will make you that much better. |
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cda
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Post by cda on Dec 21, 2009 16:40:08 GMT -5
The snow and cold air makes everything that much harder and will make you that much better. If that is your philosophy, why stop at cold air? Do everything possible to incapacitate yourself while training, in order to have that much more of an edge in competition. I'd suggest investing in a drag chute, deliberately dehydrating yourself, wearing clothing hilarious enough to be taunted by passing motorists, taping 80-grain sandpaper to your nipples, and immersing your legs in strawberry jam prior to each and every run. |
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miletime
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all hail HAILE!!!!
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Post by miletime on Dec 21, 2009 18:32:55 GMT -5
The snow and cold air makes everything that much harder and will make you that much better. If that is your philosophy, why stop at cold air? Do everything possible to incapacitate yourself while training, in order to have that much more of an edge in competition. I'd suggest investing in a drag chute, deliberately dehydrating yourself, wearing clothing hilarious enough to be taunted by passing motorists, taping 80-grain sandpaper to your nipples, and immersing your legs in strawberry jam prior to each and every run. i will take you up on everything except for the 80-grain sandpaper taped to my nipples, i get chaving as it is  |
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? i recall seeing banners in my gym for this..
