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Post by oldster on Oct 20, 2009 11:31:11 GMT -5
We can debate what she meant by being "part of team", but I doubt she meant simply the experience of winning races (like she would anyway) and finding out afterward how the team did. I'm pretty sure she's talking about the experience of training with a team, making friends, becoming invested in how these friends are training and racing-- exactly the same thing that goes on in all training groups, whether or not they ever go on to form a scoring team-- rather than just adding her placing to that of others to come up with a score, which is what is generally meant when people say X-C is a "team sport". Besides, if I can come up with a video of elite runner who says that he/she couldn't give a shit about the team dimension of X-C would that support an argument that X-C is inherently an individual sport?
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Post by journeyman on Oct 20, 2009 14:09:08 GMT -5
No one's talking about depriving the slower kid of chance to run at all. We're talking only about who gets to go to OFSAA at the end of the season. My point is that, if the rules are going to favour one kind of runner over another-- e.g. a less committed kid who is the 5th member of a second place team from a big school in a relatively weak region over a very committed individual from a smaller school in a relatively strong region-- then I would support rules that favour the individual. I see your point, although I think it is probably unfair to assume that just because a kid is 5th on a second place team that that kid has not worked hard. You have probably seen it, but I doubt you could really suggest this is a hard and fast rule. Certainly participation in OFSAA is the final step in a season, and one that not everyone gets to make. I still think that favouring a team concept will be better for the sport in the long run as many athletes will keep going because of the team. |
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Post by journeyman on Oct 20, 2009 14:19:33 GMT -5
XC is at least more of a team sport than track and field. You can score a track and field meet, but not everyone is necessarily going to contribute. The team of 5-7 scorers all contribute their individual efforts. Everyone comes to sport for a different reason and is motivated differently, but the team aspect of XC is a big draw. The team concept certainly contributes to training groups--the reason for many training groups is the team (though that's not to say training groups don't exist outside of the team concept--obviously they do). When we are talking about an institutionalised (ie school) sport program, the team concept is what draws athletes and what gives the sport life. Once outside of that, for example at club nationals, the focus is on individuals again, and that makes sense because once you start work etc, you might not have the luxury of a training group that you can turn into a team. Also, if you are at a higher level, high school sports might not provide enough of a challenge. In high school, you have that training group built in, barring a lack of support at your school of course. If OFSAA prioritized the individual over the team, there would be no incentive for those schools who lack a program to create one, and some programs would likely get dropped. Even at the university level we face this in Quebec. The ADs INSIST that we create some sort of "league" and there will be rules next year that you have to run two races in Quebec in order to qualify for the conference championship. Without the team concept, institutional support dries up.
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Post by oldster on Oct 20, 2009 14:39:56 GMT -5
This is why I'm not willing to say that X-C is exclusively an individual sport. Particularly in school, the team concept really does draw out kids who may otherwise choose to do other things. But, on the question of OFSAA qualification, I think the current formula is tilted too far in the team direction-- to the point where it has become discouraging for good runners without teams. And on the question of who tends to be more serious and motivated, I'm going to say from experience that the good individual tends to be far more committed, and therefore deserving of a championship experience, than the average 4th or 5th runner on a second place team. To remedy this, I would favour something like bystanders' proposal, or my own of 1 team and 10 individuals. I think, in the end, this would actually help, not hinder, X-C participation, particularly in the smaller schools. And, in the school context, maximum participation by serious and committed kids is what we should be striving for.
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Post by bystander on Oct 20, 2009 16:57:56 GMT -5
The problem with one team qualifying per association is that the second team may be good in some associations, while poor in others - lumping them in the same category isn't fair either. This year, LOSSA might have 3 pretty good Senior boys teams - one team isn't going to OFSAA.
Equally, in some races ( I have certainly seen it on more than a few occasions) the top three in the qualifying race are all individuals and so qualify, the 4th stays home, even though ALL 10 team qualifying runners place behind them.
To make OFSAA even better - eliminating some of the "rif-raf" - the Regional format is the way to go (even with the Logistical problems in the North - they can sort it out in their own fashion). Strong associations will be rewarded and weak ones will get left at home. The OFSAA race becomes a higher quality affair both for teams and individuals. The 6th place Regional team is bound to be better than the 2nd place team in a weak association. A strong association may get 3 teams (or more) to OFSAA, a really weak one maybe none. I like the 15 individual qualifiers (1/2 of the "team" entry and 1/3 of the entire field), although 10 from this scenario would be fine as well - fewer people than currently compete at OFSAA.
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Post by ronb on Oct 20, 2009 17:07:33 GMT -5
I am enjoying reading the debate on qualifying for OFSAA Cross-Country. What a nice problem to have --- too many people trying to qualify for Provincials... Our whole sport should be blessed with such "problems". I find myself agreeing with some of the points made on each side of the discussion, but it sounds as though a Regional qualifier might work for the majority. Anyways, you guys can work it out, but nice going to Ontario schools and coaches !
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Post by oldster on Oct 20, 2009 19:06:38 GMT -5
I'm now sold on the regional scheme (with the 16 individual qualifiers). Now, all we need is a couple of high school coaches to sell this to their association and OFSAA with the same vigor as the guys who pushed the 16 practices rule!
And, Ron: Yes, it's a great problem to have. I don't think X-C has ever been more popular, and the kids more talented, than they are right now in Ontario. The problem now is to convince more of them to think about trying to go beyond the school/age class ranks. Most don't yet understand how long it takes, or how hard you have to work.
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Post by ronb on Oct 20, 2009 19:55:53 GMT -5
Critical point, Steve. Despite our various concerns and issues, we have this enormous base of talent in cross-country running, with a lot of Ontario input, of course. Now, what do we do??? There are 52 schools in the CIS, and just over 30 who have cross-country teams that compete in the CIS. Wouldn't it be great if those coaches had: a) a long-term perspective on the development of the individual runner(s), and b) a cheque book that would allow them to offer support to the top runners who might be interested in running at one or other of the CIS schools ? To me, that would be a win/win opportunity for both the individual runners involved, and the development of the Canadian cross-country program, and thus the Canadian distance running program. Of course, there will be those who want to go South for their own reasons, and that's fine too - some will come back...  |
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Post by rojocaliente on Oct 20, 2009 23:05:31 GMT -5
However in my gr 12 year i made ofsaa xc and track alternate for the 4x4 doesn't exactly count. sorry |
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dr1500
Full Member
RADiculous
Posts: 279
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Post by dr1500 on Oct 21, 2009 10:10:30 GMT -5
However in my gr 12 year i made ofsaa xc and track alternate for the 4x4 doesn't exactly count. sorry Where do you guys get your info from, you obviously have no clue what your talking about. |
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Bruno
New Member
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Post by Bruno on Oct 21, 2009 13:35:24 GMT -5
19 Cardinal Leger S S 'A' 3:32.68 3:33.44 3
1) Dantae Chance 2) Kahmall McCabe
3) Ian Hamilton 4) Dalton Rismay
5) Daniel Bright 6)
Eh, come on guys... don't chirp the anchor leg of this blistering 4x4 and of course we can't forget when this guy almost broke the sound barrier at OFSAA xc:
100 Dalton RISMAY Cardinal Leger C. SS Team 1 1430 24:14.2 3:31
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Post by henry25 on Oct 21, 2009 15:27:12 GMT -5
The problem with one team qualifying per association is that the second team may be good in some associations, while poor in others - lumping them in the same category isn't fair either. This year, LOSSA might have 3 pretty good Senior boys teams - one team isn't going to OFSAA. Equally, in some races ( I have certainly seen it on more than a few occasions) the top three in the qualifying race are all individuals and so qualify, the 4th stays home, even though ALL 10 team qualifying runners place behind them. To make OFSAA even better - eliminating some of the "rif-raf" - the Regional format is the way to go (even with the Logistical problems in the North - they can sort it out in their own fashion). Strong associations will be rewarded and weak ones will get left at home. The OFSAA race becomes a higher quality affair both for teams and individuals. The 6th place Regional team is bound to be better than the 2nd place team in a weak association. A strong association may get 3 teams (or more) to OFSAA, a really weak one maybe none. I like the 15 individual qualifiers (1/2 of the "team" entry and 1/3 of the entire field), although 10 from this scenario would be fine as well - fewer people than currently compete at OFSAA. The LOSSA situation truely stinks, it's fairly discouraging, but i suppose it's another school's turn to get to go to OFSAA. |
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Post by mralexmoher on Oct 21, 2009 15:30:34 GMT -5
ok i read this whole thread and i like the regional idea, but these are just words, oldster, you look like you know what's going down, do you think you could propose this to an ofsaa comitee or something? I really have no idea what it takes to change rules like this, but maybe we could find out?
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distancemedley
Full Member
" in running dedication & humility aren't virtues, their obligations"
Posts: 149
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Post by distancemedley on Oct 21, 2009 15:36:12 GMT -5
19 Cardinal Leger S S 'A' 3:32.68 3:33.44 3 1) Dantae Chance 2) Kahmall McCabe 3) Ian Hamilton 4) Dalton Rismay 5) Daniel Bright 6) Eh, come on guys... don't chirp the anchor leg of this blistering 4x4 and of course we can't forget when this guy almost broke the sound barrier at OFSAA xc: 100 Dalton RISMAY Cardinal Leger C. SS Team 1 1430 24:14.2 3:31 If you have a problem with Dalton take it up with him, why would you have to group in all those other athletes and deem their effort sub par in the 4x400? What did they do to deserve your insults? Maybe getting to Ofsaa was a huge accomplishment for them but I guess its typical on an online forum to take jabs at people whom you will never meet or interact with. |
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Post by henry25 on Oct 21, 2009 15:43:12 GMT -5
19 Cardinal Leger S S 'A' 3:32.68 3:33.44 3 1) Dantae Chance 2) Kahmall McCabe 3) Ian Hamilton 4) Dalton Rismay 5) Daniel Bright 6) Eh, come on guys... don't chirp the anchor leg of this blistering 4x4 and of course we can't forget when this guy almost broke the sound barrier at OFSAA xc: 100 Dalton RISMAY Cardinal Leger C. SS Team 1 1430 24:14.2 3:31 If you have a problem with Dalton take it up with him, why would you have to group in all those other athletes and deem their effort sub par in the 4x400? What did they do to deserve your insults? Maybe getting to Ofsaa was a huge accomplishment for them but I guess its typical on an online forum to take jabs at people whom you will never meet or interact with. also to add in, one performance doesn't sum up what an athlete is capable of and/or has done. For example, My OFSAA result was sub par but i ran much better at OTFA's 2 weeks later (124th to 47th? or so, which isn't amazing but is much better than the other). |
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Post by prefontainelives on Oct 21, 2009 16:34:38 GMT -5
The only problem I see with cross country qualifying standards is that Regions like Metro take 4 teams every year to OFSAA because of their size, whereas other Regions only take 2.
As for the regular qualifying standards I see no issue. If you are in a hard region without a team, train harder and make it the next year. High quality runners shift from region to region every few years as the good ones graduate from grade 12 and good ones appear in grade 9. I see no difference between arguing this point and arguing that making OFSAA track is hard on individuals too. For example this track season Cetral OFSAA regions will have a crazy senior boys 3000m race, with Degroot, Dillon, Esselink, King, Denault, and Pesce to name a few. Two of those runners will not make it to OFSAA even though they are probably better than 3/4 of the other runners there.
My advice to those individuals who are looking at this in a negative way. Suck it up. Next August put in good mileage and feel that much better about your effort when you do make it to OFSAA.
And i have to agree with the fact that as important as OFSAA is, not qualifying isnt the end of the world. AO's and Nationals are both great stages to prove what you could have done.
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distancemedley
Full Member
" in running dedication & humility aren't virtues, their obligations"
Posts: 149
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Post by distancemedley on Oct 21, 2009 17:05:28 GMT -5
19 Cardinal Leger S S 'A' 3:32.68 3:33.44 3 1) Dantae Chance 2) Kahmall McCabe 3) Ian Hamilton 4) Dalton Rismay 5) Daniel Bright 6) Eh, come on guys... don't chirp the anchor leg of this blistering 4x4 and of course we can't forget when this guy almost broke the sound barrier at OFSAA xc: 100 Dalton RISMAY Cardinal Leger C. SS Team 1 1430 24:14.2 3:31 HEARTLAKE INVITATIONAL 2009 Pos Bib Name School Time 1 1618 Jeff Stone Turner-Fenton S S 22:45 2 562 Luca Geiser John Cabot C S S 23:18 3 1152 Philippe Parrot-Migas St. Aloysius Gonzaga 23:36 4 1366 Brendan Hynes St. Michaels College 23:41 5 108 Dalton Rismay Cardinal Leger S S 23:52 6 485 Eric Labelle Holy Trinity H. S. 23:54 7 502 Kevin Azocar Iona C S S 23:55 seems like hes actually a pretty solid runner... |
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Bruno
New Member
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Post by Bruno on Oct 21, 2009 17:46:33 GMT -5
No... it seems like jeff stone is a pretty solid runner.
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dr1500
Full Member
RADiculous
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Post by dr1500 on Oct 21, 2009 18:47:44 GMT -5
You're so lucky dude..
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Post by runningwizard on Oct 21, 2009 19:35:19 GMT -5
XC is a team sport in the eyes of OFSAA.
OFSAA is about raising school orale and exposure to all kids.
If you are worried about individual focus, that is what OTFAs are for, not OFSAA.
Individual focus and seeing xc as a individual sport usually comes from club coaches and non-teachers who dont understand the main focus of hs xc.
Go to the U.S and see if xc is anything but a team sport.
Having a student do well individually is so meaningless compared to the satisfaction and excitement around a team.
I would be more inclined to say get rid of the individual slots and make each school enter full teams for OFSAA, that would be the better option.
Why is OFSAA so much more popular than club??
TEAM CONCEPT!!
Just my 2 cents.......who really cares, there are options for everyone....if oFSAA went with the individual focus it would lose major appeal....
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Post by prefontainelives on Oct 22, 2009 7:12:47 GMT -5
XC is a team sport in the eyes of OFSAA. OFSAA is about raising school orale and exposure to all kids. If you are worried about individual focus, that is what OTFAs are for, not OFSAA. Individual focus and seeing xc as a individual sport usually comes from club coaches and non-teachers who dont understand the main focus of hs xc. Go to the U.S and see if xc is anything but a team sport. Having a student do well individually is so meaningless compared to the satisfaction and excitement around a team. I would be more inclined to say get rid of the individual slots and make each school enter full teams for OFSAA, that would be the better option. Why is OFSAA so much more popular than club?? TEAM CONCEPT!! Just my 2 cents.......who really cares, there are options for everyone....if oFSAA went with the individual focus it would lose major appeal.... agreed. But individual qulaification cannot be taken out due to the fact that some schools dont have a team but 1 single very strong runner |
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Post by xcrunner96 on Oct 22, 2009 9:36:45 GMT -5
i would say otfa is much more team oriented than ofsaa is
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Post by penguin on Oct 22, 2009 12:52:17 GMT -5
I agree with runningwizard, if cross country was individual focus you would get the twenty runners that you see run the 3000 in track. Runners of all ability have to chance to be on a medal winning team at the local and Ofsaa levels. To these runners the medals a more meaningful than those who collect them meet after meet. The strong individuals runners will always be at the top, but for one sport you don't need to be the best to be a champion
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Post by bystander on Oct 22, 2009 15:04:32 GMT -5
I don't agree with runningwizard, and find her tone quite offensive - this club vs school mindset really needs to stop, and BOTH sides are to blame here. The sad part is that both sides seem to feel that they are "right" and the athlete suffers for it. It is the adults who need to "grow up" in all of these situations and remember who this is about - the athletes, not themselves.
XC can, and perhaps needs to, cater to (at ALL levels) both Teams and Individuals. While the scholastic mandate is towards participation (understandably), where does the athlete without a team fit in to the picture? It is normally not their fault that sufficient numbers to form a team don't exist in their school. Perhaps (and I've seen a number of schools in this situation) their school doesn't have an active coach (more a team administrator) involved, and yet the athlete should be entitled to participate as much as any programs who do have active coaches interested in recruiting more athletes out to the XC team. Great job those coaches who make this effort - but don't ignore the plight of athletes who aren't in this situation (they just want to compete). Given the problems (in many associations) with two-sport rules as well, there are bound to many more individual athletes in programs where fielding a team is becoming difficult. This sport (unlike "normal" team sports) can accommodate many indviduals (Track has the limit of 8 lanes anyway, and even the 1500/3000 has the limit of that structure in terms of selection - and it's already a three day meet) who simply want the opportunity to compete at OFSAA XC as individuals, without having to be amongst the very best - the OP's perception is that the teams are getting an easier opportunity and the expense of the individuals - it's not quite that simple.
It is unlikely that anything will change, but the OP does have a valid concern in the sense that THEY may have to see the sport from an individual perspective, that may not be their choice. Other than place in the top 3 (non-team qualifiers) which might mean that they have to be amongst the best in Ontario (for their age), their participation in the sport becomes limited. While AO and Nationals are worthwhile alternatives, this shouldn't have to be the case for HS runners who simply want to get better in the sport. Not all programs (I have known many) go to all the invitationals, etc. Some only go to qualifying meets (City/County qualifiers and their association meet), then that is the extent of their HS XC experience. I have been in situations where parental involvement is required to get athletes to more than the bare minimum of meets - these athletes can only see the sport in terms of the individual as the team aspect simply doesn't exist for them. It's not a matter of choice (as it would be to join a club with or without a team) for them, it is a matter of circumstance.
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Post by ronb on Oct 22, 2009 18:20:36 GMT -5
Keep the pool as large as possible, for as long as possible. Find a method of qualification that helps to accomplish that goal. Both team participation and quality individual participation have a lot of value, and a balance should be struck that recognizes both. If the best way to do that is to have a Regional level, even though that is inconvenient for a few, then that is the way to go, imo.
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Post by henry25 on Oct 22, 2009 19:32:36 GMT -5
I agree with runningwizard, if cross country was individual focus you would get the twenty runners that you see run the 3000 in track. Runners of all ability have to chance to be on a medal winning team at the local and Ofsaa levels. To these runners the medals a more meaningful than those who collect them meet after meet. The strong individuals runners will always be at the top, but for one sport you don't need to be the best to be a champion well said, the few medals ive gotten from running do mean a lot more cuz i dont get one every meet ahaha |
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rez
Junior Member
Posts: 97
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Post by rez on Oct 22, 2009 20:01:21 GMT -5
there will always be cases where it is more individual than team but that doesn't mean it's not a team sport, i mean look at the schools that run in a pack together, is that not teamwork to sacrifice personal glory for the good of the team. for the people who cant't always qualify in xc they can do so in track. the regional format is an interesting idea as long as it doesn't lose the team feel to it because it is something special to be a part of a team and accomplish something together
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Post by trackstar on Oct 23, 2009 8:47:48 GMT -5
I agree that it has to focus on qualifying teams. Cross country is a team sport and especially at the school level, the team aspect is the best way of convincing a lot of kids to go. First of all, it is necessary for your training group (for at least some of your training) to be your scoring group and preferably your school team. You can get to know people in your club well, but if they're at your school you see them all day every day, go to most meets with them and are training towards a common goal. This is important and cannot be overlooked. I do not understand the argument that it's not fair to kids at smaller schools who can't field a team or field a small team. I sympathize with them but seriously, the rules should not be altered for them. I don't think any one is suggesting that we allow the small schools' football teams to play in the metro bowl. Individual qualification is important to some extent as OFSAA claims to have the best runners in the province and therefore, the Matt Leeder or Mohammed Ahmed type has to be there regardless of their team. There's no need to take less teams and add more individuals.
Just my 2 cents
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Post by runner93 on Oct 25, 2009 10:44:37 GMT -5
Good point to bring up. Personally, I don't agree with cross country being a team sport, atleast not during high school. Instead of having only three fast individuals and two teams of five mediocre runners making it, I think it would make sense to only letting one team go and have the top 8 individuals make it on.
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