RVM Video from lead vehicle with music

[wetcoast]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXddCbC7fBI

[skuja]

My Morning Jacket! Some of your music doesn't suck. Thanks for this. I get the sense that Oz ran very smart/controlled, and Houston will be a different pace entirely.

Off topic: CK, I'm begging for another 5k (Oak Bay track?) in early Dec - after XC - any plans?

[wetcoast]

>>any plans?<<

Planning a series for May to August 2010. The rough plan is to have 6 to 8 races over 12 weeks. One might be a road or trail race to add some participation $$. Series points like the Island Series.

Mix of distances like:

First event:
5000m & mile both open and elite.

Second event:
5000m 1500 & 800m open and elite
- Maybe a high school only 800m.

Third event:
3000m, 1 mile, 800m open and elite.

Fourth event:
10, 000m open and elite....

Something like that.

Talking to first potential sponsor next week.

Maybe all will be at Oak Bay Track, maybe UVic if they aren't too anal. Series races will be fun like Black Press 5000. BC Athletics will be invited out to time and sanction for records one night. All races at night, Fridays hopefully.

Start the training now.

[skuja]

Wow!

Er....I love you?

[ronb]

Good stuff, Chris. Lots of comments about the details, which a whole bunch of us can work out over beers, but the intent is great ! One quick thought --- don't do the trail run. We can run on the trails out here all year around, but make (encourage) folks to get their ass to the track, once every 2 or 3 weeks from May to August. JMHO.

[SI]

Oct 17, 2009 11:52:43 GMT -5 skuja said:

I get the sense that Oz ran very smart/controlled, and Houston will be a different pace entirely.

Based on his 15 mile training run detailed on his blog, that was at pretty close to maximum effort given his current state of fitness(and I can directly relate because I have done that work-out slightly slower prior to a marathon). If the goal is a pb in Houston, sorry, but I don't really see the point. You can only go to the well for a maximum marathon effort so many times. He may still do it(I hope he does) but(IMHO) it will be in spite of this race, not because of it.

[skuja]

3 months to Houston? Where was he 3 months before RVM? Sure, 2:22 may have been maximum effort for him. But he's on his way up.....a steep climb imho.......and look at his RVM finish; slow, yes, but does he look spent after crossing the line? I think he can find 2km in the next 3 months.

Let's just see what happens, shall we?

[SI]

Oct 17, 2009 22:53:17 GMT -5 skuja said:

Sure, 2:22 may have been maximum effort for him.

I am glad we agree. So what is the point? I really don't see it. If the overriding goal is a high finish at your local marathon, fine, he succeeded. If the overriding goal, however, is a national team or a pb, I just can't see how it fits into those plans. If you think athletes have an unlimited number of maximum effort marathons in their legs then I can see why one would disagree. I don't happen to think that is the case. I think you have to make the most of your opportunities.

And I would say that even it were more than three months out. Since it was a maximum effort, the fact that it is only three months out to Houston is going to take a very calibrated recovery and build up. Ask Coolsaet, who would have preferred much more time before worlds.

[skuja]

Well, again, I think you have to look at the whole picture, and realize where this Marathon was in it, and be fucking postive for once.

OK I was kidding there.

A little.

[SI]

Just because I am not an unquestioning toady doesn't mean I am not "positive". If there is a "big picture" beyond performing well on the island(and there is nothing wrong that), sorry, but his actions(to me) are not indicative of it but go ahead and explain.

[skuja]

Oct 18, 2009 14:40:07 GMT -5 SI said:

Just because I am not an unquestioning toady doesn't mean I am not "positive". If there is a "big picture" beyond performing well on the island(and there is nothing wrong that), sorry, but his actions(to me) are not indicative of it but go ahead and explain.

Well, AGAIN, if you look at the whole picture, the preparation (?) he did for 2:22, and his lack of devastation at the finish, and his real movement in 10k this year, and the fact that Geb has no problems doing well at Berlin AND Dubai, and some other things, then, imho, there are reasons to be positive about a big time in Houston, notwithstanding your little digs ("unquestioning toady", "overriding goal is to do well locally" (totally false so stfu about it please) etc).

[SI]

The performing well locally was not a "dig". I already said that there is nothing wrong with it. So, by process of elimination, pbs and national teams must be what you think the goals are. When I talk about the big picture, I am talking about plans and goals and the stepping stones to getting there. I am not talking about trying to draw some positives because of the time he ran relative to his training, etc. That is meaningless without the plan-the big picture so to speak.

You are going to have to walk me through how that 2:22 was a productive stepping stone towards what you think the goals are.

Imho, a guy in 2:18 - 2:20 shape running a 2:22 is performing a pretty meaningless and pointless exercise if the goals are as you say-as a matter of fact, it is arguably harmful if you believe(like I do) that there are only so many maximum effort performances in the tank.

If that same 2:18 - 2:20 guy had done a hard aerobic run at just under a 6 minute pace, then I could see it being part of a legitimate training buildup. I would likely still argue the 26.2 miles was too far, but I could at least understand why there could be some disagreement on the issue.


A proper rest and build-up after close to a 100% effort requires more than 3 months(once again IMHO but we are NOT talking about a once in a lifetime athlete like Geb here-I think we can agree on that).


I actually want to be so positive for Canadian marathoning that I want to see him go for the big show (ie fast time, presumably on a conducive course) and I question where a 2:22 in Victoria fits in the 'big picture'. I really don't know why you are taking this so personally. I think it was a mistake(IMHO). That's all. I think I have made a reasonable case so not sure what the stfu, etc are all about. I have also been consistent. I said at the time that I would have picked a better spot to do what hopefully wasn't his once in a lifetime 2:16 and change(he said himself on his blog that he couldn't really understand how he did it). I am guessing that, for one thing, he didn't run a maximum effort marathon 3 months before but I could be wrong. I would be interested to hear from ronb on what I say the issue is-ie whether an almost a 100% effort three months before a pb attempt would be part of a good training plan. I am guessing that ronb wouldn't recommend it for one of his athletes. Do you honestly think it is a good idea? That is really the question. I don't think you have answered it.

[skuja]

Oct 18, 2009 16:24:22 GMT -5 SI said:

The performing well locally was not a "dig". I already said that there is nothing wrong with it. So, by process of elimination, pbs and national teams must be what you think the goals are. When I talk about the big picture, I am talking about plans and goals and the stepping stones to getting there. I am not talking about trying to draw some positives because of the time he ran relative to his training, etc. That is meaningless without the plan-the big picture so to speak.

You are going to have to walk me through how that 2:22 was a productive stepping stone towards what you think the goals are.

Imho, a guy in 2:18 - 2:20 shape running a 2:22 is performing a pretty meaningless and pointless exercise if the goals are as you say-as a matter of fact, it is arguably harmful if you believe(like I do) that there are only so many maximum effort performances in the tank.

If that same 2:18 - 2:20 guy had done a hard aerobic run at just under a 6 minute pace, then I could see it being part of a legitimate training buildup. I would likely still argue the 26.2 miles was too far, but I could at least understand why there could be some disagreement on the issue.


A proper rest and build-up after close to a 100% effort requires more than 3 months(once again IMHO but we are NOT talking about a once in a lifetime athlete like Geb here-I think we can agree on that).


I actually want to be so positive for Canadian marathoning that I want to see him go for the big show (ie fast time, presumably on a conducive course) and I question where a 2:22 in Victoria fits in the 'big picture'. I really don't know why you are taking this so personally. I think it was a mistake(IMHO). That's all. I think I have made a reasonable case so not sure what the stfu, etc are all about. I have also been consistent. I said at the time that I would have picked a better spot to do what hopefully wasn't his once in a lifetime 2:16 and change(he said himself on his blog that he couldn't really understand how he did it). I am guessing that, for one thing, he didn't run a maximum effort marathon 3 months before but I could be wrong. I would be interested to hear from ronb on what I say the issue is-ie whether an almost a 100% effort three months before a pb attempt would be part of a good training plan. I am guessing that ronb wouldn't recommend it for one of his athletes. Do you honestly think it is a good idea? That is really the question. I don't think you have answered it.

Well, this one was a refreshingly dig-less post, so thank you. It should spark some good discussion.

I follow Steve's blog, and I do believe that Rich Lee has a good head on his shoulders. Steve did RVM by default, because he "screwed around all summer". JB has done a 2:20 there before, not long before 2:09? Didn't Bruce do around 2:20 there while gunning for 2:13 later? I know Oz is not JB or BD....his best is 2:16, and maybe he has a 2:14 in him on one of those "good" courses, with competition, and the right buildup.

I gotta go, but I hope to keep the discussion free of personal digs, thanks.

[skuja]

Still here....

Steve describes the race and how lousy he felt near the end.....but I still believe that this didn't devastate him. He did pretty much even halfs, he sure looked good to me at 39.5km, and at the line, and a couple of 6 mile days that followed are good signs that he didn't go to the well. He just wasn't in shape to tackle 2:16....or faster.....that will be Houston, and that is the sense I get when reading/observing Steve.

Maybe he himself will comment?

[SI]

Sorry, can't agree that doing something that takes as much out of you as a marathon "by default"(I also saw that somewhere) makes any sense in any sort of short or long term planning. How he looked or felt at the end is beside the point. The implication is that he did it just for the hell of it. Hopefully, it was against the advice of his coach(which can happen). I want someone to explain to me how a race like this fits into any sort of plan to run a pb at Houston and what it was supposed to accomplish towards that goal.

[oasis]

check out this link:
www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/TrainingLogs/Spedding%20Log/spedding.htm

I guess 3 months btw marathons can be done but I agree with SI that is probably not optimal

I for one am a fan of Steve O. and believe he is very talented, hopefully he can have a good one in Houston but the armchair quarterback in me would like to see him run London or Rotterdam instead

sure his coach knows what's best though

[SI]

Oct 18, 2009 16:51:45 GMT -5 skuja said:

JB has done a 2:20 there before, not long before 2:09? Didn't Bruce do around 2:20 there while gunning for 2:13 later? I know Oz is not JB or BD....his best is 2:16, and maybe he has a 2:14 in him on one of those "good" courses, with competition, and the right buildup.

I gotta go, but I hope to keep the discussion free of personal digs, thanks.

JB did a 2:20 before his 2:09 which would equate to Oz doing something closer to 2:30ish not a 2:22. Makes the case(assuming that I even agree that JB did the right thing by going 2:20 so close to NY). And Deacon's 2:21 was close to nothing. Ran it in 2004. CIM was in 2001.

[skuja]

Oct 18, 2009 19:39:13 GMT -5 SI said:

Oct 18, 2009 16:51:45 GMT -5 skuja said:

JB has done a 2:20 there before, not long before 2:09? Didn't Bruce do around 2:20 there while gunning for 2:13 later? I know Oz is not JB or BD....his best is 2:16, and maybe he has a 2:14 in him on one of those "good" courses, with competition, and the right buildup.

I gotta go, but I hope to keep the discussion free of personal digs, thanks.

JB did a 2:20 before his 2:09 which would equate to Oz doing something closer to 2:30ish not a 2:22. Makes the case(assuming that I even agree that JB did the right thing by going 2:20 so close to NY). And Deacon's 2:21 was close to nothing. Ran it in 2004. CIM was in 2001.

Hmmm....correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Bruce win RVM twice? (Yes I'm too lazy to look it up.) 2004, his last Marathon (LOL), and earlier....as a "long tempo"....

2:20/2:09......11mins......Oz is 6min off his RVM best.....8min off his potential for 2010 on a "fast" course???.....was in a different "place" (shapewise) than JB or BD when they did RVM......is it really a different ballpark? (Dude, where does "2:30ish" come from? That's 14min slower than his PR.)

[SI]

Oct 18, 2009 21:55:54 GMT -5 skuja said:

Hmmm....correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Bruce win RVM twice? (Yes I'm too lazy to look it up.)

Yes-1999 in 2:26:53. Random RVM results and lifetimes Pbs do not make any sort of case.

tinyurl.com/yg7jjpy

Oct 18, 2009 21:55:54 GMT -5 skuja said:

2:20/2:09......11mins......Oz is 6min off his RVM best.....8min off his potential for 2010 on a "fast" course???.....was in a different "place" (shapewise) than JB or BD when they did RVM......is it really a different ballpark? (Dude, where does "2:30ish" come from? That's 14min slower than his PR.)

Yes. You are throwing around several precious seconds per mile pretty casually. Oz was in 2:18 shape based on that 15 miler(at best). 2:30ish for him would have been the same as a 2:20 for a 2:09 guy(assuming I even agree that was a good idea).