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Post by HHH on Oct 22, 2009 20:54:48 GMT -5
Seems like a pretty pointed criticism of myself, not sure how I can take that the wrong way? ... Again, a pretty direct criticism that I do take offence to. Did I say you took it the wrong way? It was aimed (in part) at you. I said I regret having offended you, not that I didn't expect to, or that I was sorry for it. You're justified in being offended. ... Yes, direct and intended. The offence part is an unfortunate aspect of it. Just calling a spade a spade. ***EDIT - OK I see your confusion. I wrote "I don't think you take my point" My point wasn't to offend you, so that's not what I was referring to. My point was that a positive attitude is necessary. This, you lack on this particular topic. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's not really a criticism (the opposite maybe - it speaks to your passion for the sport), but a simple observation. From the cheap seats. Hows this for a positive attitude. Give me Steve, Ron, Thelma, DST, John Brown and anyone else who is interested to form a separate cross country association to oversee XC running in Canada (not necessarily me at the helm but seeing as I'm one of the more vocal ones, I will pull my weight for sure). Give us 5 years and here's what we will do: We will get the teams fully funded again. We will make Canada a more competitive XC nation than it has been since funding for XC was teams was cut. We do not need any money from AC or the taxpayers. What we do need is the following: Freedom to be allowed to operate without any hinderance from AC. All we need AC to do is sign off on the entries. I would ask that any money (100%) given to AC from the IAAF for the XC team be turned over to the XC committee to be used for the XC program only. If after 5 years our 2 goals are not met or that Canadian athletes are not happy, we will happily return the program to AC to run as they see fit. And we will do this for free. There you go. No risk to AC or the tax payers. I know that people from AC check these boards so here is my contact info: Matthew Norminton mattnorminton@hotmail.com 780-935-3771 Anyone else interested in helping feel free to contact me directly. Matt |
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Post by skuja on Oct 22, 2009 22:21:53 GMT -5
Wow there is a heck of a lot of discussion on here, which at this point just looks like discussion - like what is going to happen out of this? There should be a concerted effort to get the World Cross to Canada. Now that done properly will create some much needed grassroots interest, sponsorship interest and general interest in the sport here. Also AC would want to field a full-on team, at home. Time to look up the application process for submitting a bid to hosting....I'll report back...with my findings. AC still might not send a fully funded team, LOL. What did World XC in Boston (92?) do for the sport in USA? |
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Post by skuja on Oct 22, 2009 22:27:05 GMT -5
Did I say you took it the wrong way? It was aimed (in part) at you. I said I regret having offended you, not that I didn't expect to, or that I was sorry for it. You're justified in being offended. ... Yes, direct and intended. The offence part is an unfortunate aspect of it. Just calling a spade a spade. ***EDIT - OK I see your confusion. I wrote "I don't think you take my point" My point wasn't to offend you, so that's not what I was referring to. My point was that a positive attitude is necessary. This, you lack on this particular topic. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's not really a criticism (the opposite maybe - it speaks to your passion for the sport), but a simple observation. From the cheap seats. Hows this for a positive attitude. Give me Steve, Ron, Thelma, DST, John Brown and anyone else who is interested to form a separate cross country association to oversee XC running in Canada (not necessarily me at the helm but seeing as I'm one of the more vocal ones, I will pull my weight for sure). Give us 5 years and here's what we will do: We will get the teams fully funded again. We will make Canada a more competitive XC nation than it has been since funding for XC was teams was cut. We do not need any money from AC or the taxpayers. What we do need is the following: Freedom to be allowed to operate without any hinderance from AC. All we need AC to do is sign off on the entries. I would ask that any money (100%) given to AC from the IAAF for the XC team be turned over to the XC committee to be used for the XC program only. If after 5 years our 2 goals are not met or that Canadian athletes are not happy, we will happily return the program to AC to run as they see fit. And we will do this for free. There you go. No risk to AC or the tax payers. I know that people from AC check these boards so here is my contact info: Matthew Norminton mattnorminton@hotmail.com 780-935-3771 Anyone else interested in helping feel free to contact me directly. Matt How many calls did you get from AC so far, Matt?  We all* want to see this pathetic situation change, and the main thing imho is having thousands and thousands of people in Canada care about this. We here are going deep into the woods in the middle of the night to sit by a campfire, hold hands, protest, and sing kumbaya (sp?). Seriously Matt, how do we get the masses to care? (*Actually, 4 TnFers in your poll didn't care.) |
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Post by oldster on Oct 22, 2009 22:28:51 GMT -5
Very audacious, HHH! I would be there in a heartbeat, and I'd do it for free, of course. However, I think the simple restoration of full funding-- by any source whatsoever-- would solve all problems within a few years. Then we could go back to worrying simply about how to get faster (with an unfettered road ahead making the task a little easier).
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Post by HHH on Oct 22, 2009 22:47:17 GMT -5
How many calls did you get from AC so far, Matt? We all* want to see this pathetic situation change, and the main thing imho is having thousands and thousands of people in Canada care about this. We here are going deep into the woods in the middle of the night to sit by a campfire, hold hands, protest, and sing kumbaya (sp?). Seriously Matt, how do we get the masses to care? (*Actually, 4 TnFers in your poll didn't care.) But what harm does it do? AC has pretty much written off the XC program anyways. It doesn't cost them or the tax payers anything. Worst case scenario we go back to where we are now. So this is my offer to AC, let someone else take XC for you, we'll do it for free. It would actually save AC a bunch of money. |
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Post by HHH on Oct 22, 2009 22:48:48 GMT -5
Very audacious, HHH! I would be there in a heartbeat, and I'd do it for free, of course. However, I think the simple restoration of full funding-- by any source whatsoever-- would solve all problems within a few years. Then we could go back to worrying simply about how to get faster (with an unfettered road ahead making the task a little easier). I knew you would Oldster. Anyone else want to help out the CCCA? |
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Post by skuja on Oct 22, 2009 23:01:11 GMT -5
Oh....the Canadian Cross Country Association? CCCRA is better?
Um....is Mr Stanton in this picture then?
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Post by skuja on Oct 22, 2009 23:02:37 GMT -5
Anyway, yeah I wanna fuckin help. (CCCRA....don't confuse with XC skiing.)
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Post by skuja on Oct 22, 2009 23:04:19 GMT -5
Send AC an email, tell them "it is done". Create the website. Make this the official forum.
I dunno.
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Post by HHH on Oct 22, 2009 23:08:15 GMT -5
Oh....the Canadian Cross Country Association? CCCRA is better? Um....is Mr Stanton in this picture then? No one is in the picture at this point apart from you, Oldster and me. And the name is negotiable... |
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Post by Bomba on Oct 22, 2009 23:13:10 GMT -5
...matty....i just have to say it.......'i love u man'......
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Post by Bomba on Oct 22, 2009 23:16:14 GMT -5
....and if anyone questions whether this can work i suggest u observe Bob reid on the island....he lives eats and breathes running and as a result of working outside the box he does more for dist runners than anyone I've come across.....
..but then again it's not his job (something oldster always brings up and something i completely agree with) and therefore there is no conflict between protecting his job and supporting athletes
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Post by wetcoast on Oct 22, 2009 23:32:26 GMT -5
Bob would be all over it like a fat kid on a smarty. He would do a solid job, to boot. Being retired, a guy with mega-experience and a true love of the sport - he is the right sort of guy to recruit to get involved with this sort of thing. I 2nd Bomba's motion. I will tell Bob that he is officially on the committee.
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Post by skuja on Oct 23, 2009 0:11:59 GMT -5
He's the fuckin President. Tell him that.
Ron is the Honorary Coach.
I'll be the forum administrator.
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Post by wetcoast on Oct 23, 2009 1:01:33 GMT -5
>>I'll be the forum administrator.<<
Damn and it was going oh so smooth.
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Post by HHH on Oct 23, 2009 1:08:19 GMT -5
We need a separate thread, positive vibes only from here on in.
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Post by journeyman on Oct 23, 2009 8:02:51 GMT -5
Back to positive ideas: I don't think a coup d'etat is the way to go. As SI points out, it is pretty much pointless from a legal point of view. That said, an organization that has as its goal to support distance running events, if it were to be created and successful at raising funds, could work with AC to help fund XC etc. If those who create it are bitter and angry at the governing body, I'm pretty sure AC won't be in the mood to accept the help. That sounds petty, but it is human nature. More positive energy is what is needed. Mountain running would be happy to join such a group, and I'd be happy to share my sponsorship successes...if I had any...it is a tough situation out there. As I said, I would by happy to help, if you'll have me. |
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Post by HHH on Oct 23, 2009 8:13:55 GMT -5
Back to positive ideas: I don't think a coup d'etat is the way to go. As SI points out, it is pretty much pointless from a legal point of view. That said, an organization that has as its goal to support distance running events, if it were to be created and successful at raising funds, could work with AC to help fund XC etc. If those who create it are bitter and angry at the governing body, I'm pretty sure AC won't be in the mood to accept the help. That sounds petty, but it is human nature. More positive energy is what is needed. Mountain running would be happy to join such a group, and I'd be happy to share my sponsorship successes...if I had any...it is a tough situation out there. As I said, I would by happy to help, if you'll have me. Yes of course, we need everyone working together. |
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Post by SI on Oct 23, 2009 8:29:14 GMT -5
Good point! Would be interesting to see what research you did before you made this statement slamming the people at AC: I know of several major sponsors in the running community that will not support anything AC is involved in. Oh please. You are familiar with marketing departments of companies like this and the myriad of reasons why they spend their marketing money? www.nike.cawww.royalbank.comwww.hersheys.com www.mondousa.comwww.timex.cawww.cbc.caIt would be interesting to know who these "several" "major" sponsors are in the "running community" because if they really believe so little in the sport of running that they don't want to sponsor an event for political reasons because the AC is involved(and what does that mean exactly-what specific events are you talking about-technically, they are involved in everything via the provincial associations), then why would you want them? If you really have a major sponsor's ear plus they have the best interests of the sport at heart, why not encourage that organization to work with AC from within with your and others' help? I have raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for various causes in my community over the years and one thing I learned very quickly is not to spend a lot of time on people who, bottom line, just want an excuse not to give. I have also learned that you have to send the right person to do the ask. Someone who is not already 100% sold on a cause is the LAST person who should be doing it. With respect to the proposal at hand, I hate to be the one to post a "negative vibe" but I am not sure why one wouldn't work within the system to try and effect change. If these "several" major" "running community" members are really as influential as you seem to be implying(if they aren't, your point is moot), why not encourage them to use their influence to effect some change? AC has already been praised for changing their mind on a couple of issues after applying some pressure on them and, believe me, money does talk louder than any kind of other pressure. Locally, our Y was on its way out to the edge of town to put up its new building. A bunch of us that called ourselves "The Friends of the Y" believed it was very important to keep the location downtown so the more economically challenged neighbourhoods would have access to it. We controlled a few million in potential donations to any capital campaign and basically said the funds would not be forthcoming and we would not help with the campaign. Guess what? They changed their mind. That is how it works out here. |
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Post by skuja on Oct 23, 2009 10:32:54 GMT -5
We need a separate thread, positive vibes only from here on in. We just need a group hug. |
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Post by skuja on Oct 23, 2009 10:35:34 GMT -5
I know of several major sponsors in the running community that will not support anything AC is involved in. Oh please. You are familiar with marketing departments of companies like this and the myriad of reasons why they spend their marketing money? www.nike.cawww.royalbank.comwww.hersheys.com www.mondousa.comwww.timex.cawww.cbc.caIt would be interesting to know who these "several" "major" sponsors are in the "running community" because if they really believe so little in the sport of running that they don't want to sponsor an event for political reasons because the AC is involved(and what does that mean exactly-what specific events are you talking about-technically, they are involved in everything via the provincial associations), then why would you want them? If you really have a major sponsor's ear plus they have the best interests of the sport at heart, why not encourage that organization to work with AC from within with your and others' help? I have raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for various causes in my community over the years and one thing I learned very quickly is not to spend a lot of time on people who, bottom line, just want an excuse not to give. I have also learned that you have to send the right person to do the ask. Someone who is not already 100% sold on a cause is the LAST person who should be doing it. With respect to the proposal at hand, I hate to be the one to post a "negative vibe" but I am not sure why one wouldn't work within the system to try and effect change. If these "several" major" "running community" members are really as influential as you seem to be implying(if they aren't, your point is moot), why not encourage them to use their influence to effect some change? AC has already been praised for changing their mind on a couple of issues after applying some pressure on them and, believe me, money does talk louder than any kind of other pressure. Locally, our Y was on its way out to the edge of town to put up its new building. A bunch of us that called ourselves "The Friends of the Y" believed it was very important to keep the location downtown so the more economically challenged neighbourhoods would have access to it. We controlled a few million in potential donations to any capital campaign and basically said the funds would not be forthcoming and we would not help with the campaign. Guess what? They changed their mind. That is how it works out here. Hmmmmm....ok let's call ourselves "Friends Of AC" and get fully funded teams to WXC again. |
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Post by ronb on Oct 23, 2009 12:33:36 GMT -5
Was it W.C. Fields who said, "I won't be part of any organization that would have me as a member."
Count me in --- I will help in any way that I can. But no honourary crapola, just some nose to the grindstone stuff, like everybody else.
As for the name, I think it's important.
I think we should consider whether we are focused strictly on cross-country running, or whether we want to try and build a bigger envelope, that includes all distance runners.
And then perhaps the name can reflect that decision.
Maybe those interested can be added to an "Advisory Panel or Board", and a separate address list can be formulated. Perhaps some would like to be supportive, but don't
wish to post here, for various reasons. I can think of a few of those already.
What exists now? Is there a separate National Road Running Association? Is Run Canada functioning with AC? Who is involved with that group? Has Thelma created a Cross Country Committee within AC? Again, who is involved there.
e-mails welcomed at <rsbowker@telus.net>
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Post by Steve Weiler on Oct 23, 2009 13:07:36 GMT -5
... I think we should consider whether we are focused strictly on cross-country running, or whether we want to try and build a bigger envelope, that includes all distance runners. If people are genuinely looking to create a group that will work with AC/etc. I will strongly suggest said group covers the full range of distance running. We're such a unique event group with such far-reaching implications that to focus solely on the xc aspect would be doing ourselves/athletes a disservice. If we're arguing that international xc is important (vital?) within the greater context of developing distance runners, then a goal of helping fund international xc could simply be one key objective within the greater mandate of the new group. Get key members of the road running community on board early: top BC race directors, Alan/canadian running series, John/manny/ottawa, etc. The last 2 have already shown they care enough to put their $ where their mouths are re: getting Canadian distance runners competing internationally and working with AC towards that end. 'Friends of Canadian Distance Running'? |
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Post by skuja on Oct 23, 2009 14:10:30 GMT -5
CDRAS
The Canadian Distance Running Appreciation Society.
Because somebody should.
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Post by skuja on Oct 23, 2009 14:49:01 GMT -5
Perhaps ironically Matt, I think the "funding partners" that AC does in fact have are a big part of the problem. But I digress.
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Post by SI on Oct 23, 2009 14:51:56 GMT -5
We all know where you stand so if we need someone to disagree with us, we'll ask you for your opinon. Who is this "we" and "us"? Didn't you see ronb's post about how we all aren't automatons? Good grief. I'm glad I don't need your permission to disagree or to post "negative vibes". If Chris wants to exercise his prerogative as a moderator and muzzle me, he is welcome to do so. As I have said before, correlation does not imply causation. The fact that AC does not fully fund national teams to world championships speaks volumes about how they choose to spend their money and nothing more. I am not an apologist for AC(that's laughable)-far from it, actually, if you want to bother to review the tape on the Sully fiasco and the last time AC moved on team selection, among other things. So if I want to point out that there are other ways to get an organization to move on an issue, I am going to do so. If that is not consistent with the current party line with the "we" and "us" you refer to, that's too bad. |
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Post by oldfart on Oct 23, 2009 15:31:49 GMT -5
I sort of feel obliged to get in on this...
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Post by HHH on Oct 23, 2009 16:48:39 GMT -5
Who is this "we" and "us"? Didn't you see ronb's post about how we all aren't automatons? Good grief. I'm glad I don't need your permission to disagree or to post "negative vibes". If Chris wants to exercise his prerogative as a moderator and muzzle me, he is welcome to do so. As I have said before, correlation does not imply causation. The fact that AC does not fully fund national teams to world championships speaks volumes about how they choose to spend their money and nothing more. I am not an apologist for AC(that's laughable)-far from it, actually, if you want to bother to review the tape on the Sully fiasco and the last time AC moved on team selection, among other things. So if I want to point out that there are other ways to get an organization to move on an issue, I am going to do so. If that is not consistent with the current party line with the "we" and "us" you refer to, that's too bad. My post was overly aggressive and over the top, I apologize. You are of course free to contribute your opinions and I should respect those even if I don't agree with them. |
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Post by ronb on Oct 23, 2009 17:40:37 GMT -5
Reading up a bit today, it seems that Run Canada is alive and well, and with people such as John Halvorsen and Jerry Tighe on the Committee, we should be well-served there...
Personally, I like CANDRA (Canadian Distance Running Association). It starts with the word "CAN" and defines our interests without limiting our involvement in various aspects of the activity. Immediate priority goals, such as supporting the International Cross Country Teams could quickly be agreed upon and stated as primary objectives, or something like that.
We should form local chapters or enclaves. Just another way of encouraging people with geographical proximity to connect and chat about the future of our sport, over beers, on a regular basis. When I refer to "our sport", I include those who run 2 laps of the track, or farther on any surface, be it track, road, trail, cross-country, etc.
We should have members, and it shouldn't be free.... 1 loonie per year, to support the basic mental state of those of us who still care... Just freestyling here...
Work with AC whenever possible, in a positive interaction, but in no way limit our potential to seek out our own sponsors...
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Post by HHH on Oct 23, 2009 19:11:36 GMT -5
All good ideas but I think it needs to be presented in such a way that this group or committee (association was the wrong choice of word on my part, it sounds very aggressive now that i have chilled out a bit) would take over the program for AC and run it for them. With no funding from AC or the taxpayers, this group would then be free to set up a national XC program (trials in Feb for worlds), find funding to get the selected team to the Americas champs and ultimately to worlds. If the group is going to find the funding for the team to go then they should be the ones to set standards and select teams as they see fit. Call me negative but I do not see this working any other way.
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