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Post by firstorlast on Aug 31, 2009 12:21:00 GMT -5
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Post by knights on Aug 31, 2009 12:23:51 GMT -5
there's no escape.
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Post by hconnor4 on Aug 31, 2009 12:28:40 GMT -5
"Went to the Frink's place. Started jammin' 'round 10:50, then hooked up with Brad's sista. Yea!!"
Truely a glorious day for the running community to have such detailed insight on how an OFSAA champ came to be.
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Post by firstorlast on Aug 31, 2009 12:45:39 GMT -5
"Welcome to the Dog Pound!!!!!"
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skuja
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Post by skuja on Aug 31, 2009 12:49:51 GMT -5
Maybe I'll make an "OFSSA In The 70s" thread. (It was so much better then.)
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Post by bdeacon on Aug 31, 2009 17:05:57 GMT -5
I can't believe that I got sucked into reading this by the subject. I can't believe that almost 400 other pour souls did also.
To salvage the loss of time. Why don't we start add real insights from OFSAA champs or medalists?
I'll start in the hopes that others will follow suit:
1) Contrary to what I thought while in HS, there are bigger races than OFSAA (that said, OFSAA wins are some of my most memorable races).
2) Don't be scared of mileage. It will make you stronger. You won't burn out because you have a few weeks of 112-128km (70-80 mpw).
3) You can win OFSAA cross country if you aren't leading in the first 800.
4) I wish I did more sand hill workouts. In retrospect, they made me so fit and strong.
5) More of the people that beat me dropped out of running due to jobs and girl friends than hard training. The burning out thing is a bit over-blown.
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Post by cfmalone on Aug 31, 2009 17:11:27 GMT -5
Wrong on some of those. And contrary, do you poor milk?
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Post by krs1 on Aug 31, 2009 17:19:03 GMT -5
Wrong on some of those. And contrary, do you poor milk? cfmalone, you should probably do some research into who you are criticizing. It might give you a bit more respect to what Bruce is saying. |
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skuja
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Post by skuja on Aug 31, 2009 17:20:16 GMT -5
LMFAO...hahahahahaha.....
Kids these days.
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Post by cfmalone on Aug 31, 2009 17:34:54 GMT -5
Im not talking about that, im saying i dont think he should be criticizing either. And i respectfully disagree with 5, about burning out.
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Post by hconnor4 on Aug 31, 2009 17:58:55 GMT -5
I agree with bdeacon, and although I never did get any OFSAA medals(4th was my best), I will add some insights.
1) If your Hamstrings are sore, take the day off and play tennis, then take the next two days off because you are even more sore.
2) Running 11 laps (no more, no less) around a soccer field at slightly above tempo pace is great for the legs. This is also great because you avoid knee pain.
3) Riding out of the saddle is great because you "feel the burn" and are "hardcore". This is also good cross training during higher mileage weeks, and is a great way to avoid late season burnout.
4) If you can't hold you breath underwater for at least 1m 5s, you have no chance of winning OFSAA.
5) If something hurts, you "Need to lay off on what's making you hurt"
That's just my (Ian's) two cents.
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Post by tundra on Aug 31, 2009 18:07:06 GMT -5
I wish BDeacon would post more. I'm listening. I'm 40 and am very willing to take a few lessons from him. I really think his honesty is being mistaken for being critical.
It would be interesting to know how many of us are over 30, and even 40 that have been at or near the top of OFSAA and are still at it(I can name at least 4 that post here). On the flip side, wouldn't it be interesting to know why the people that were near the top of OFSAA are not at it. Bruce, I'm with you, methinks burnout is an overblown excuse for a lot of people. I know that I go through the doldrums sometimes, so that's when it's time to step back and get to know my dog a little better or do some swimming or hell just take a month off.
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Post by coachc on Aug 31, 2009 18:19:16 GMT -5
I can't believe that I got sucked into reading this by the subject. I can't believe that almost 400 other pour souls did also. To salvage the loss of time. Why don't we start add real insights from OFSAA champs or medalists? I'll start in the hopes that others will follow suit: 1) Contrary to what I thought while in HS, there are bigger races than OFSAA (that said, OFSAA wins are some of my most memorable races). 2) Don't be scared of mileage. It will make you stronger. You won't burn out because you have a few weeks of 112-128km (70-80 mpw). 3) You can win OFSAA cross country if you aren't leading in the first 800. 4) I wish I did more sand hill workouts. In retrospect, they made me so fit and strong. 5) More of the people that beat me dropped out of running due to jobs and girl friends than hard training. The burning out thing is a bit over-blown. Could not agree with you more on every point. Thanks for posting Bruce  It would be great to hear more from you in the future. |
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Post by ronb on Aug 31, 2009 19:40:44 GMT -5
Im not talking about that, im saying i dont think he should be criticizing either. And i respectfully disagree with 5, about burning out. Yep you are right. Why would we want to hear from someone who has run OFSAA and the CIS, trained in Ottawa, London, Vancouver, and Victoria, and finished 11th in the World Championships in the Marathon, among many other accomplishments? What could his opinions possibly be worth?  |
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Post by cfmalone on Aug 31, 2009 19:46:54 GMT -5
Im not talking about that, im saying i dont think he should be criticizing either. And i respectfully disagree with 5, about burning out. Yep you are right. Why would we want to hear from someone who has run OFSAA and the CIS, trained in Ottawa, London, Vancouver, and Victoria, and finished 11th in the World Championships in the Marathon, among many other accomplishments? What could his opinions possibly be worth? I dont see anyone here saying we dont want to hear from him, i just thought his comment seemed a bit rash. And am i not aloud to disagree? You have your opinions, i have mine, just like i think burning out is not over-blown. |
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Post by krs1 on Aug 31, 2009 20:20:54 GMT -5
Yep you are right. Why would we want to hear from someone who has run OFSAA and the CIS, trained in Ottawa, London, Vancouver, and Victoria, and finished 11th in the World Championships in the Marathon, among many other accomplishments? What could his opinions possibly be worth? I dont see anyone here saying we dont want to hear from him, i just thought his comment seemed a bit rash. And am i not aloud to disagree? You have your opinions, i have mine, just like i think burning out is not over-blown. If not Bruce, someone else would have said the same thing regarding the initial worth of this thread. Contrary, do you speak allowed? |
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Post by cfmalone on Aug 31, 2009 20:25:39 GMT -5
I think it was meant to be a joke. TNF seems to need a bit of humour lately. You caught me with allowed. What about intial? Thats not a word, haha.
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Post by krs1 on Aug 31, 2009 20:28:44 GMT -5
Yes, it was a joke, since you also called out Bruce on pour instead of poor.
Yep, intial is not word, but I just missed a letter. I didn't use a completely different word ;-)
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Post by coachj on Aug 31, 2009 20:29:32 GMT -5
Please continue Bruce - What a pleasure !!
Listen and Learn Kids
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Post by cfmalone on Aug 31, 2009 20:33:05 GMT -5
I meant the initial thread was a joke. And yes calling him on spelling was a joke too. That was bad grammar, but at least I didn't try and cover it up by going back and changing it  |
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Post by krs1 on Aug 31, 2009 20:39:04 GMT -5
I meant the initial thread was a joke. And yes calling him on spelling was a joke too. That was bad grammar, but at least I didn't try and cover it up by going back and changing it You were too quick on the trigger. I actually caught the mistake as I was re-reading it, and as I was changing it you were spell checking it for me (my modified post was in the same minute as your's calling out my error) |
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Post by cfmalone on Aug 31, 2009 20:41:34 GMT -5
What can I say, I'm quick. But I'll say this, if Bruce wasn't criticizing the joke, I want to hear from him again, and I apologize.
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Post by oldster on Aug 31, 2009 20:57:10 GMT -5
Please continue Bruce - What a pleasure !! Listen and Learn Kids Yeah, come on Brucie! Old embattled coachj has been pining for literally years for your mythical imprimatur. Please tell him that it's o.k. not just to allow highly motivated 14 year olds like you were to run a lot of mileage, but to build a program around it. And, be sure to tell him that it's great to have kids race year-round, indoors and out, 20 or 30 odd times a year from age 11 or 12. (But please don't tell him what Bill Rodgers told you way back when). You see, old coachj doesn't just want to hear from those of us with a lifetime of experience. He wants to hear from those of us with a lifetime of experience who will also confirm his own half-baked ideas. And there are not many of us who will, so please scratch his itch! (It will make his hind leg go up and down too.) |
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Post by christie on Aug 31, 2009 21:25:11 GMT -5
I'd have to say the heading for this thread, given where it led people, was a bit misleading.
Nevertheless, now we're into some interesting speculation (which could be more empirically-grounded, if someone would do a careful study into why people do leave the high-end of the sport, even when seemingly successful early on). This doesn't have to be nothing more than a lot of 'opinion' floating around!
My own take on this is that there are many who leave for non-burn-out reasons ('life' could be a reasonable heading of this large category), but that there are also many who leave in the period just after high school right up to just after university graduation for reasons that one might classify as 'burnout'.
I don't see this as being primarily a matter, however, of physical burnout. It seems to me, reflecting on a cross-section of those I know who seem to just have floated away from the high-end of the sport during these years, is that it's more a combination of physical and psychological burnout.
The psychological side can take many forms - one that I've noticed, for example, is that of the high-achieving athlete who has been able to enjoy the perks of being a big fish in a small pond (regionally/provincially), who finds that the competition is catching up to him/her as high school wraps up and a university-career begins (typically these are individuals who excelled in grades 8 - 11, but now with only small improvements from year-to-year they find those they used to beat handily coming up closer and closer with each season).
This, I would say, leads to a kind of burn-out. The constant stress of trying to remain a big fish in the pond, when the pond is getting larger and deeper (inexorably filling up with other large fish) and one's own prowess is only increasing marginally from season-to-season, seems to get to some people.
I think we need to work out how to reach more of these folks. Lots can be done to keep them in the sport, and once through this difficult period of adjustment they can once again flourish. It pretty much comes down to a need to adjust one's horizons, to accept that ultimately the pond is full of really big fish (i.e., young Kenyans running well under 28 minutes!) but that there can be so much that is rewarding throughout one's life in maintaining a strong connection to the sport. Maybe the athlete just needs to grow enough to see that finishing top 10-20 in university-level competition the first few years in the senior ranks is a good and reasonable goal, that patience may yet pay off with another round of improvements in the early-mid 20's.
As to the purely physical side of burnout, I'm with Bruce - this, I think, is a bit overblown. As a reason for people leaving the sport, ON ITS OWN, I would think this is down the list. I really can't think of many who left because they had simply physically done too much to their bodies, and with break-downs they had to exit. I would go back to my thoughts above - most often it seems to me to be more a combination of several years of hard training coupled with psychological aspects that impinge upon the minds of these kids during these formative years, when the hard training does not lead to the same degrees of improvement they did in earlier years.
And as far as the rare actual physical break-down goes, while some may over-train, often is not really the intensity that's responsible for the breakdown, but the rate at which an athlete tried to ramp up mileage and pace, or other coaching problems that exacerbate a weakness. A good coach should be able to see how to keep an athlete on a steady build-up in intensity right through university and beyond.
I'd love to hear from Bruce on this - my big years of training only took place in my late 20's, and if injury (from bad shoes and no health insurance for remediation) hadn't kicked in, I would have likely been able to maintain this level (unthinkable to me in my early 20's) right up to my late 30's. More is pretty much always better, when done properly, and keeping in mind that the body can withstand an awful lot more than most of us - even high-level distance runners - think it can.
My 2 cents.
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Post by oldster on Aug 31, 2009 22:04:42 GMT -5
Nice post, Christie. And you're right, the term "burnout" is not particularly useful in itself. In fact, it may be more trouble than it's worth. The problem is that, for a few years now, our age-class middle distance people have been as good as ever (better, in fact, at ages 14-16); but, this hasn't been translating into greater depth at the senior elite levels, particularly in the distance events--in fact, quite the opposite. Attributing this to something called "burn-out" isn't very helpful. In my view, the paradox in question must have something to do with our model of youth development, which has over the years come to ape sports like hockey, swimming and gymnastics much more than it did 30 years ago. Someone like Bruce was basically a young maverick, out there on his own, doing his own thing for his own reasons. By contrast, a kid who is training and racing a lot today was very likely introduced to the sport by an adult, and is doing his/her thing in the context of a very organized program, with tons of parental/adult scrutiny and supervision, with all of the attendant external pressures. Kids like Bruce (if there are really any left) are not the issue. They are likely to stick with it for the same reasons that brought them to the sport in the first place. It's the kids who join a serious club at an early age and who start training and racing year-round in that context that, I think, are the ones at issue when it comes to premature abandonment of the sport.
What say you, Brucie?
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skuja
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Post by skuja on Aug 31, 2009 22:43:48 GMT -5
I wish BDeacon would post more. I'm listening. I'm 40 and am very willing to take a few lessons from him. I really think his honesty is being mistaken for being critical. It would be interesting to know how many of us are over 30, and even 40 that have been at or near the top of OFSAA and are still at it(I can name at least 4 that post here). On the flip side, wouldn't it be interesting to know why the people that were near the top of OFSAA are not at it. Bruce, I'm with you, methinks burnout is an overblown excuse for a lot of people. I know that I go through the doldrums sometimes, so that's when it's time to step back and get to know my dog a little better or do some swimming or hell just take a month off. Well, for what it's worth, I'm 47, but I was never near the top of OFSAA, LOL. |
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skuja
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Post by skuja on Aug 31, 2009 22:46:36 GMT -5
Im not talking about that, im saying i dont think he should be criticizing either. And i respectfully disagree with 5, about burning out. Yep you are right. Why would we want to hear from someone who has run OFSAA and the CIS, trained in Ottawa, London, Vancouver, and Victoria, and finished 11th in the World Championships in the Marathon, among many other accomplishments? What could his opinions possibly be worth? Olympics, 2:13 Thon late in his career, yaddayaddayadda....... |
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skuja
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Post by skuja on Aug 31, 2009 22:51:20 GMT -5
Contrary, do you speak allowed?  |
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skuja
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Post by skuja on Aug 31, 2009 23:01:20 GMT -5
I'd have to say the heading for this thread, given where it led people, was a bit misleading. Nevertheless, now we're into some interesting speculation (which could be more empirically-grounded, if someone would do a careful study into why people do leave the high-end of the sport, even when seemingly successful early on). This doesn't have to be nothing more than a lot of 'opinion' floating around! My own take on this is that there are many who leave for non-burn-out reasons ('life' could be a reasonable heading of this large category), but that there are also many who leave in the period just after high school right up to just after university graduation for reasons that one might classify as 'burnout'. I don't see this as being primarily a matter, however, of physical burnout. It seems to me, reflecting on a cross-section of those I know who seem to just have floated away from the high-end of the sport during these years, is that it's more a combination of physical and psychological burnout. The psychological side can take many forms - one that I've noticed, for example, is that of the high-achieving athlete who has been able to enjoy the perks of being a big fish in a small pond (regionally/provincially), who finds that the competition is catching up to him/her as high school wraps up and a university-career begins (typically these are individuals who excelled in grades 8 - 11, but now with only small improvements from year-to-year they find those they used to beat handily coming up closer and closer with each season). This, I would say, leads to a kind of burn-out. The constant stress of trying to remain a big fish in the pond, when the pond is getting larger and deeper (inexorably filling up with other large fish) and one's own prowess is only increasing marginally from season-to-season, seems to get to some people. I think we need to work out how to reach more of these folks. Lots can be done to keep them in the sport, and once through this difficult period of adjustment they can once again flourish. It pretty much comes down to a need to adjust one's horizons, to accept that ultimately the pond is full of really big fish (i.e., young Kenyans running well under 28 minutes!) but that there can be so much that is rewarding throughout one's life in maintaining a strong connection to the sport. Maybe the athlete just needs to grow enough to see that finishing top 10-20 in university-level competition the first few years in the senior ranks is a good and reasonable goal, that patience may yet pay off with another round of improvements in the early-mid 20's. As to the purely physical side of burnout, I'm with Bruce - this, I think, is a bit overblown. As a reason for people leaving the sport, ON ITS OWN, I would think this is down the list. I really can't think of many who left because they had simply physically done too much to their bodies, and with break-downs they had to exit. I would go back to my thoughts above - most often it seems to me to be more a combination of several years of hard training coupled with psychological aspects that impinge upon the minds of these kids during these formative years, when the hard training does not lead to the same degrees of improvement they did in earlier years. And as far as the rare actual physical break-down goes, while some may over-train, often is not really the intensity that's responsible for the breakdown, but the rate at which an athlete tried to ramp up mileage and pace, or other coaching problems that exacerbate a weakness. A good coach should be able to see how to keep an athlete on a steady build-up in intensity right through university and beyond. I'd love to hear from Bruce on this - my big years of training only took place in my late 20's, and if injury (from bad shoes and no health insurance for remediation) hadn't kicked in, I would have likely been able to maintain this level (unthinkable to me in my early 20's) right up to my late 30's. More is pretty much always better, when done properly, and keeping in mind that the body can withstand an awful lot more than most of us - even high-level distance runners - think it can. My 2 cents. Wonderful post Gordo, and it's so thrilling to see you still "giviner" at the odd local race....you clearly still love the sport! Hey....what's Brucie been doing since that 68-ish Half / 2:24 Thon(?) as a Master? I know he is "busy" with V2010 and all, but where is his running at these days? I'm just curious. |
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Post by christie on Aug 31, 2009 23:39:57 GMT -5
I'm curious about Bruce's recent running activities, but I'm more interested in hearing about the state of the heels (I've heard a rumour that he went under the knife, to scrape away the spur-like thing that seems to afflict so many of us older gents and ladies).
Does this rumour have any truth to it? If so, how'd it go Bruce? I've had this large bump on my right heel now for close to 10 years, but haven't felt I'm serious enough about running to actually have someone take a knife to it!
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