One week of training

[journeyman]

Since we have so many great coaches and running minds here, I thought I would try a little experiment. The idea is to post a sample week of training. Not a week that you did run (although it could be), but the ideal week, given the parameters below. Explain your terms and your choices.

Parameters:
One week of training, 4-6 weeks out from a major championship, 5k distance.

Can be male or female, xc or track or road. Specify any particular items that relate specifically to the choice of surface.

There is no race this week, only training.

Express volume in kilometers. For each session, give specific interval distances and total volume for the session.

Express pace as a particular current race pace. e.g. 2x5x200 at 1500 pace. The reason for this is to make sure everyone is speaking the same language.

If you normally would express your workouts otherwise (kph, min/k, min/mile, %VO2max, %maxHR, etc) please translate to an approximate race pace. It might not be a regular distance (i.e. could be 2k race pace, if you mean a little slower than 1500 and a little faster than 3k).

If you want to talk about goal race pace as opposed to current race pace, convert goal pace to current pace+x sec per 400m. There should be a realistic connection between goal pace and current pace though.

Background: let us know the avg weekly volume for the previous 8 weeks, current fitness in the 5k distance, 5k PB and goal time (if any).

Explain yourself. So if you are going to talk about tempo or steady state, explain what you mean by it (by using the race pace translation), and also explain what you think the purpose of such workouts would be for the athlete at this particular stage.

The explanation will be the most interesting part I think. It is one thing to see the training there, but another to understand the reasons why. Also, I recognise that one week might not be the same microcycle that everyone uses, so if that is the case, feel free to post your microcycle (10 days, 14 days, 5 days, 8 days) and explain why you've gone that route.

You can pick a real person or an imaginary person. If you are picking a real person, it might be interesting for us to know who it is, and if this particular week already happened, how things turned out later.

What I hope to show here is that there are many roads to Rome. What is more interesting is to travel down each one. Since we can't usually afford to do that, I thought this exercise could help. And one week seemed manageable.

[SI]

Beer and junk food consumed during the typical week might also be useful parameters.

[pq]

This could be a fun thread if everyone plays nice.

I'm not a coach. I don't think I could suggest one ideal week because there are too many factors that affect every individual week. Here's what I did in the 4-6 weeks leading up to my 3k and 5k PBs. For me, 3k and 5k training are very nearly the same, so I think it's valid to put them both down. Note that neither was specifically a goal race, and if there was a big 5k as a key season ending goal the training may have looked different.

6-4 weeks before 3k PB:
12 Oct 08: 80 miles incl 5 x 1000 w/2:00 standing @ close to 5k pace, 5 x 2000 w/400j @ a lttle slower than 10k pace, 12 mile long run
19 Oct 08: 73 miles incl 10 x 100/100 @ 17/45 + 5 x 200/100 @ 34/45 + 10 x 100/100 @ 17/45 + 5 x 200/100 @ 34/45, 16.5 mile LR incl 10k race (25s PB), 10 mile hilly trail run
26 Oct 08: 86 miles incl 3 x 1500 w/4:00 standing @ ~ 5k pace, 15.5 mile long run
Prior 8 weeks ranged from 26 to 102 miles, average ~ 65

6-4 weeks before 5k PB:
14 Oct 07: 75 miles incl 6 x ~ 100 strides, 10k race (2s PB), no LR
21 Oct 07: 70 miles incl 8 x 600 w/200j @ ~ 3k pace, 21 mile LR incl 2 x 3 miles @ between HM and M pace
28 Oct 07: 71 miles incl 3 + 2 miles w/800j @ between HM and M pace, 6 x 100 w/300j @ a little quicker than 400 pace, 5k race, 16 mile LR
Prior 8 weeks ranged from 40 to 79 miles, average ~ 65

Every one of those weeks looks different, and yet they were all 4-6 weeks out from a top fitness race result.

I should add that notall workouts are created equally. A couple in there would have been peak effort near ball busters, but most of them would have been one or more notches lower on the effort scale.

[journeyman]

Thanks pq. The point is that no one can suggest one ideal week, but that if everyone contributes what they think an ideal week might look like, we all gain. Please everyone pretend for the purposes of this post that your way of doing things is the right way. I don't think we need to preface everything with "well, this is only the way I do it"--the premise of the thread includes that very thing.

I'm looking for one week, each day (including recovery runs, supplemental training, and even nutrition is anyone thinks that sort of thing might be relevant). You gave six weeks, incomplete information and you used miles not kms.

I'm not saying your post is not helpful or interesting. It is, but you didn't do it right: start over!

[pq]

I gave you six times as much information as you asked for. Each one of those weeks qualifies as an “ideal” week 4-6 weeks out from a 5k race.

You can convert to kms if you like.

Easy running was pretty random each of those weeks. Doubles many days, but there’s very little structure to it. My easy runs are run as long as I feel, or as long as I have time for.

That’s all you get. I’m pulling 14-16 hr days in the high Andes, and already exceeded my allocation of free time responding to your thread.

I'm sure others have more interesting ideal weeks to give you anyway.

[oldster]

O.K., I'll bite, and I'll try to keep it simple.

At 4-6weeks out, total volume will have peaked (for elite athletes, probably 120-170km/week)and will be level or dropping slightly. This period is "go-time" for MV02 work, which means: 2 sessions @ current 3k/5k race pace in an 8 day period; one session @ tempo pace (Half marathon race pace for male elites, 3-5 secs/km slower for female elites); and, one longer run (1.5-2x volume for other recovery days), producing a cycle looking like this:

Day 1: 20-25mins warm-up, including light flex drill and strides; 6x1200m @ average between current 3k/5k race paces with 80-100secs slow jog recovery; 20-25mins warm-down.

Day Two: 30mins @ slow end of easy range a.m.; 60mins E p.m. (E= Daniels' specified "E" pace +/- 5 secs/km as an average for the whole run); core/weights.

Day Three: Repeat day two + 5x20 secs @ current 1500 race pace p.m.

Day Four: 30mins @ E-pace a/m.; 3x10mins @ tempo-pace with 2mins recovery/hydration (20mins warm-up/down). A tempo session in this phase is mainly to shore-up running economy and provide a mental respite from the harder MV02 sessions.

Day Five: Repeat day two.

Day Six: 90-120mins @ E-pace (starting a slow end of range, finishing at high end).

Day Seven: Repeat day three.

Day Eight: 30mins E a.m; 15x400 @ 3k/5k pace with 30-40 secs easy jog recovery, followed by 2x1200 @ the same pace, with 80-100 secs slow jog recovery (20mins warm-up/down, including strides/drills).

A couple of notes:

-"Goal pace" is not a meaningful tool in training. The body knows only effort level, not pace expressed in time over distance. We only use current 3/5k average as a proxy for speed at current MV02, and even it must be adjusted carefully for conditions. If an athlete attempts to work at efforts beyond MVO2, the session will be compromised, or unwittingly turned into one with another objective than putting in an optimal amount of time @ MV02. The "goal" of an athlete can only be to become fitter/faster than he/she currently is, and this can only be done by working within existing fitness parameters and letting the consistency that this facilitates, plus accumulated volume, do the work in improving these parameters over the longer term.

-I understand what journeyman is trying to get at in this exercise; but, the essence of coaching is not in the setting of a week of training; it is in supervising a particular athlete through the completion of that and every other week of training. The role of the coach is to correctly make the handful or so specific judgment calls required to keep an athlete going forward; such calls including the tweaking, rearranging, or even wholesale scrapping of the entire weekly plan.

[journeyman]

Mar 26, 2010 10:35:53 GMT -5 pq said:

I gave you six times as much information as you asked for. Each one of those weeks qualifies as an “ideal” week 4-6 weeks out from a 5k race.

You can convert to kms if you like.

Easy running was pretty random each of those weeks. Doubles many days, but there’s very little structure to it. My easy runs are run as long as I feel, or as long as I have time for.

That’s all you get. I’m pulling 14-16 hr days in the high Andes, and already exceeded my allocation of free time responding to your thread.

I'm sure others have more interesting ideal weeks to give you anyway.

The point was that we would not have to translate ourselves, and to limit the information to one week. I think it makes a difference how much easy running happens on the off days, although part of your theory might be that it does not. Also, I wanted it to be as concrete as possible, which, as you say, is not necessarily the case in real life. It's an artificial exercise. It can be made up, so if you don't remember, you can just throw in whatever you think would be best.

I am not saying it wasn't helpful, but I was just trying to keep everything similar, so as to have a good basis for discussion. I think everyone understands that any contributions here are on our own free time.

[journeyman]

Thanks Oldster.

I agree with both of your notes. With respect to the first, I was trying to find a way to normalize effort level so that everyone can have an idea of what each workout means. There are lots of ways to say the same thing, but there are subtle differences, too. For the second, it is absolutely a complicated, multifaceted process. I'm trying to isolate one particular variable, i.e. program design, rather than program implementation. Otherwise, there are too many what ifs: weather, how much lunch someone had, if their girlfriend just dumped them, etc. But I am interested to see a variety of different plans.

I'll post my own "plan" later. I have to go to class now...

[oldster]

Mar 26, 2010 11:09:08 GMT -5 journeyman said:

Thanks Oldster.

I agree with both of your notes. With respect to the first, I was trying to find a way to normalize effort level so that everyone can have an idea of what each workout means. There are lots of ways to say the same thing, but there are subtle differences, too. For the second, it is absolutely a complicated, multifaceted process. I'm trying to isolate one particular variable, i.e. program design, rather than program implementation. Otherwise, there are too many what ifs: weather, how much lunch someone had, if their girlfriend just dumped them, etc. But I am interested to see a variety of different plans.

I'll post my own "plan" later. I have to go to class now...

All points taken.

[powerboy]

Nice to talk some training theory for a change. I agree with all the qualifiers and limitations that others have noted, but that being said, can post a representative week. I have a guy aiming at 14:20 or under this year, so this is a reasonable estimate of what I might expect 4-6 weeks out.
Sunday; traditional long run 20k@ 3:35-3:50 pace;
Monday; 15 k easy;
Tues; 4x1500@ 4:15-4:20 with 3-4 min rest;
Wed; 15-20 k easy
Thurs; 5x600@ 1:39 with 2 min rest plus 5x300m @45/46 with 90sec 2min rest;
Fri 15 k easy
Sat; possibly 8k tempo (25:30) or 2x2k@5:40 with 4 min rest plus 4x400@64 with 75 sec rest.
Total for week-100k
This is more like 4 weeks out than 6 weeks, and I would definitely want a race 3 weeks out.

[Linc]

Mar 26, 2010 10:59:06 GMT -5 oldster said:

Day 1: 20-25mins warm-up, including light flex drill and strides; 6x1200m @ average between current 3k/5k race paces with 80-100secs slow jog recovery; 20-25mins warm-down.

Day Two: 30mins @ slow end of easy range a.m.; 60mins E p.m. (E= Daniels' specified "E" pace +/- 5 secs/km as an average for the whole run); core/weights.

Day Three: Repeat day two + 5x20 secs @ current 1500 race pace p.m.

Day Four: 30mins @ E-pace a/m.; 3x10mins @ tempo-pace with 2mins recovery/hydration (20mins warm-up/down). A tempo session in this phase is mainly to shore-up running economy and provide a mental respite from the harder MV02 sessions.

Day Five: Repeat day two.

Day Six: 90-120mins @ E-pace (starting a slow end of range, finishing at high end).

Day Seven: Repeat day three.

Day Eight: 30mins E a.m; 15x400 @ 3k/5k pace with 30-40 secs easy jog recovery, followed by 2x1200 @ the same pace, with 80-100 secs slow jog recovery (20mins warm-up/down, including strides/drills).

When you say repeat day two, and then repeat day three(essentially, day 2 plus 5x20 sec @ current 1500m pace) does that include the weights and core?

[thinskinned]

June 20 - 13:59.78

6weeks before;
Mon-am easy 8km
pm easy 10k
Tue -am easy 8km
pm 5k warm-up,drills,5x100 strides
1600-800float-1200-800float-800-800float-400
(4:26-2:41-3:28-2:53-2:16-2:48-63)
5k warm-down
note: Paul Williams went thru 14:00@5k on this workout
Wed-am easy 8k
pm 14k easy-med, 5x100strides
Thur-am easy 8km
pm 5k warm-up, 5x100strides
2x(3x200change pace)200jog btwn & 400jog btwn sets
(27.9), full rest, 400-5min-600-5min-400(54,1:26,57)
5k warm-down
Fri-am 18km med-easy
pm easy 8km
Sat-am easy 5k
pm-6k warm-up, 5x100strides
2x(1000-3min-800-3min-600-2min-400)5min set break
my favourite 5k workout(2:43,2:07,1:33,57)
5k warm-down
Sun- 24km med-easy

Total=162km(100.5miles)

The tue. workout is very tough & very much like racing. It is not 'my' workout & I'm not sure I would prescibe it as a coach unless there were no races to be found in the build-up. Thur is also not 'mine' but I thought it worth showing this week since 3 or 4 of the guys I was doing this with were 13:25-35 guys. Not sure if they did the Sat workout, I probably did that by myself as it was my 'pet' workout......14:01.54 the following Sat.

[distancechick]

Here's an actual week, it's 3 weeks outside of a 5k PR (16:50), 19 year old female:

Monday:
AM - 40 minutes / 8.8km + Weights
PM - 60 minutes / 13.33km + 8 x 100m strides

Tuesday
AM - 20 minutes / 4.5km
PM -
25 x 400m with 60s standing recovery, in 78
**repeats 16, 20, 24 were "hammers"(ie, maximal efforts), then keeping the same recovery and back to 78 for the next one
20km

Wednesday;
AM - 40min /8.17 km + Weights
PM - 60min / 13km

Thursday
AM - 60min / 13.09km
PM - 15 minutes warm up / Drills , 8x Hill Sprints (8 seconds) / 30 cool down (11.47km)

Friday
2 x 3 miles @ Threshold pac (5:50/mile), 1 minute recovery
+ 8 x 100m strides
17.16km

Saturday
40 minutes easy / 8.8km

Sunday
Long run - 2 hours, 26km

Total: 134km

[oldster]

Mar 26, 2010 12:10:42 GMT -5 Linc said:

Mar 26, 2010 10:59:06 GMT -5 oldster said:

Day 1: 20-25mins warm-up, including light flex drill and strides; 6x1200m @ average between current 3k/5k race paces with 80-100secs slow jog recovery; 20-25mins warm-down.

Day Two: 30mins @ slow end of easy range a.m.; 60mins E p.m. (E= Daniels' specified "E" pace +/- 5 secs/km as an average for the whole run); core/weights.

Day Three: Repeat day two + 5x20 secs @ current 1500 race pace p.m.

Day Four: 30mins @ E-pace a/m.; 3x10mins @ tempo-pace with 2mins recovery/hydration (20mins warm-up/down). A tempo session in this phase is mainly to shore-up running economy and provide a mental respite from the harder MV02 sessions.

Day Five: Repeat day two.

Day Six: 90-120mins @ E-pace (starting a slow end of range, finishing at high end).

Day Seven: Repeat day three.

Day Eight: 30mins E a.m; 15x400 @ 3k/5k pace with 30-40 secs easy jog recovery, followed by 2x1200 @ the same pace, with 80-100 secs slow jog recovery (20mins warm-up/down, including strides/drills).

When you say repeat day two, and then repeat day three(essentially, day 2 plus 5x20 sec @ current 1500m pace) does that include the weights and core?

You've got a sharp eye, Linc! No, it should have said repeat day 2 (not weights/core again). I would have weights/core 2-3x in this cycle, for the average athlete.

[oldster]

Mar 26, 2010 11:45:39 GMT -5 powerboy said:

Nice to talk some training theory for a change. I agree with all the qualifiers and limitations that others have noted, but that being said, can post a representative week. I have a guy aiming at 14:20 or under this year, so this is a reasonable estimate of what I might expect 4-6 weeks out.
Sunday; traditional long run 20k@ 3:35-3:50 pace;
Monday; 15 k easy;
Tues; 4x1500@ 4:15-4:20 with 3-4 min rest;
Wed; 15-20 k easy
Thurs; 5x600@ 1:39 with 2 min rest plus 5x300m @45/46 with 90sec 2min rest;
Fri 15 k easy
Sat; possibly 8k tempo (25:30) or 2x2k@5:40 with 4 min rest plus 4x400@64 with 75 sec rest.
Total for week-100k
This is more like 4 weeks out than 6 weeks, and I would definitely want a race 3 weeks out.

Just curious, why so fast on the 20k run? Seems a bit rich, even if the guy really is in 14:20 shape*. Also, how would you decide between a tempo session at over 3:10kms and the 2x2k + fast 400s, given that these are quite different sessions?

*As a 14:20 guy, I routinely did my longer runs at this pace or faster, and I wouldn't recommend it as a general rule!

[spaff]

Mar 26, 2010 10:59:06 GMT -5 oldster said:

one session @ tempo pace (Half marathon race pace for male elites, 3-5 secs/km slower for female elites);

Just for clarity...assume you mean 3-5secs/km slower than 'male half marathon pace' not 3-5secs/km slower than 'female half marathon pace' ?

[powerboy]

Oldster;
This athlete runs very comfortably at 6:00 and sub 6 pace. He may be the kind of athlete you have alluded to before-that could- should end up a marathoner as he matures.
You are right-the two sessions are quite different. The 8k tempo is a staple for me and can be done almost any time of year. The 2x2k is for closer to racing time.
One of the points of this thread was to see and possibly exchange ideas. I am interested to see that the Paul Williams workout is relatively similar to things I like.
I believe that Paul was in the absolute forefront of tempo running as well.
Distancechick; your schedule is very impressive and the total kms mindboggling.
How is your training going this year?
I would suggest one more quality workout in there somewhere. perhaps 2x2k?
good luck.

[HHH]

Mar 26, 2010 8:32:49 GMT -5 journeyman said:

Since we have so many great coaches and running minds here, I thought I would try a little experiment. The idea is to post a sample week of training. Not a week that you did run (although it could be), but the ideal week, given the parameters below. Explain your terms and your choices.

Parameters:
One week of training, 4-6 weeks out from a major championship, 5k distance.

Can be male or female, xc or track or road. Specify any particular items that relate specifically to the choice of surface.

There is no race this week, only training.

Express volume in kilometers. For each session, give specific interval distances and total volume for the session.

Express pace as a particular current race pace. e.g. 2x5x200 at 1500 pace. The reason for this is to make sure everyone is speaking the same language.

If you normally would express your workouts otherwise (kph, min/k, min/mile, %VO2max, %maxHR, etc) please translate to an approximate race pace. It might not be a regular distance (i.e. could be 2k race pace, if you mean a little slower than 1500 and a little faster than 3k).

If you want to talk about goal race pace as opposed to current race pace, convert goal pace to current pace+x sec per 400m. There should be a realistic connection between goal pace and current pace though.

Background: let us know the avg weekly volume for the previous 8 weeks, current fitness in the 5k distance, 5k PB and goal time (if any).

Explain yourself. So if you are going to talk about tempo or steady state, explain what you mean by it (by using the race pace translation), and also explain what you think the purpose of such workouts would be for the athlete at this particular stage.

The explanation will be the most interesting part I think. It is one thing to see the training there, but another to understand the reasons why. Also, I recognise that one week might not be the same microcycle that everyone uses, so if that is the case, feel free to post your microcycle (10 days, 14 days, 5 days, 8 days) and explain why you've gone that route.

You can pick a real person or an imaginary person. If you are picking a real person, it might be interesting for us to know who it is, and if this particular week already happened, how things turned out later.

What I hope to show here is that there are many roads to Rome. What is more interesting is to travel down each one. Since we can't usually afford to do that, I thought this exercise could help. And one week seemed manageable.

I like the premise of this thread but I would like to see the whole 5k program presented from base to peak race. Can we start over?

[oldster]

Mar 27, 2010 7:08:38 GMT -5 spaff said:

Mar 26, 2010 10:59:06 GMT -5 oldster said:

one session @ tempo pace (Half marathon race pace for male elites, 3-5 secs/km slower for female elites);

Just for clarity...assume you mean 3-5secs/km slower than 'male half marathon pace' not 3-5secs/km slower than 'female half marathon pace' ?

Correct. Paces are all based on the current fitness of the particular athlete.

[oldster]

Mar 27, 2010 8:49:18 GMT -5 powerboy said:

Oldster;
This athlete runs very comfortably at 6:00 and sub 6 pace. He may be the kind of athlete you have alluded to before-that could- should end up a marathoner as he matures.
You are right-the two sessions are quite different. The 8k tempo is a staple for me and can be done almost any time of year. The 2x2k is for closer to racing time.
One of the points of this thread was to see and possibly exchange ideas. I am interested to see that the Paul Williams workout is relatively similar to things I like.
I believe that Paul was in the absolute forefront of tempo running as well.
Distancechick; your schedule is very impressive and the total kms mindboggling.
How is your training going this year?
I would suggest one more quality workout in there somewhere. perhaps 2x2k?
good luck.

O.K., but a word of warning: Daniels considers that pace range as E for a 5k runner with 13:26 to 14:03 ability-- and Daniels E-paces are considered on the fast side by many people (including on this board). Your guy may feel "comfortable" at this pace, but his system may registered the effort differently. I would just worry that he might be compromising his quality sessions without gaining any clear benefit.

And I wouldn't describe the Williams session as a "tempo" session; it looks more like a very fast fartlek session. His pick-ups would have been blazing (well under 5k race pace) and his recoveries somewhere between his easy pace and his tempo pace proper (if we prorate from thinskinned's numbers). This is partly definitional, I suppose. How are you defining "tempo" running?

[journeyman]

Thanks, there are lots of great things here. I wish I'd posted my own earlier as it now seems lame. But the point is of course to see the differences.

For a male 15:00 5k runner (...question, would a female who is in 15:00 shape do anything differently based on the fact that she's female? Certainly based on the fact that she would be a different person, but in theory...does it matter if one is male or female?)

Monday: (straight interval day, with strides, 8/10)
am v. slow 30min. 5:00/k
pm 20min jog warm up, active stretching, drills, strides (4x80m, walk back recovery).
4x1600 at 4:45, 3min recovery. 4x100m strides, jog back recovery. 20min jog cool down. W/u starting at 5:00/k and gradually picking up to a comfortably fast pace for the last 5min. C/d at 5:00/k

Tuesday: (recovery day 4-5/10)
am v. slow 10min jog, plus drills, strides, core including some circuits (so some fast running between core exercises). 8 exercises, 45secs each, recovery is run 50m in between each.
pm 60-75min jog at 4:30-45/k

Wednesday: (mixed pace workout 9/10)
am v. slow 30min. 5:00/k
pm w/u and c/d as on Monday. 1600 at 5:04-8, 5min rec, 3x800 at 2:20-24, 2min between each, 5min after set, 4x400 at 64-6, 1min between each, 3min after set, 4x200 fast (sub 26-30) 2min rec.

Thursday (rest day 0/10)
off

Friday (recovery day 4-5/10)
am v. slow 10min jog, plus drills, strides, core including some circuits (so some fast running between core exercises). 8 exercises, 45secs each, recovery is run 50m in between each.
pm 60-75min jog at 4:30-45/k

Saturday (tempo day, 6/10)
20min jog at 4:30/k
3x3min at 15k pace-3min at 10k pace-3min at 15k pace (3:15/k, 3:10/k, 3:15/k). 3min jog between sets.
20min jog at 4:30/k

Sunday (long run, 7/10)
Long steady run 90min at 4:00/k.

I put the perceived effort out of 10 next to each day. I like the classic intervals as the serious VO2max stimulus. The mixed pace is kind of a mental toughness day: it works a variety of systems, makes sure you finish strong. Similar to the Williams thing, though not as tough, by the looks of it. Tempo is aerobic stimulus, with some pace change thrown in to keep it interesting. I like to do the long run a little faster, but keep the recovery runs slow. The morning jogs are extra slow. The drills and core etc in the am are for supplemental strength, injury prevention and neurological adaptation. I have thought about what day is best to do them, and considered putting them on M-W so as to have T-Th-F be jog only days, but I think there is enough variation and enough rest that it is ok as is. Will depend on the week before and the week after also--might cancel one of the mornings, shuffle around the days.

[journeyman]

Comments so far:

1) recovery. Seems like recovery is kept pretty short. I tend this way myself, though recently I've discovered that it doesn't seem to make much of a difference in a certain range. i.e. 3min is about the same as 5min and even 8min does not make the next interval hurt any less. Now, does "hurt any less" mean that it is having less of an impact on fitness?

2) "hammers" Distance chick, who is your coach? Scott Simmons? Just curious. I read his book, liked it quite a bit.

3) HHH: we'll do full programs next thread!

[HHH]

Mar 27, 2010 15:39:27 GMT -5 journeyman said:

Comments so far:

1) recovery. Seems like recovery is kept pretty short. I tend this way myself, though recently I've discovered that it doesn't seem to make much of a difference in a certain range. i.e. 3min is about the same as 5min and even 8min does not make the next interval hurt any less. Now, does "hurt any less" mean that it is having less of an impact on fitness?

2) "hammers" Distance chick, who is your coach? Scott Simmons? Just curious. I read his book, liked it quite a bit.

3) HHH: we'll do full programs next thread!

I'd like to see one for 800m!

[blahblahblah]

For 10k training, a good week for me might look like:

Saturday - 70 min - main set is broken 10k (4k @ 3:15/km, 5 min rest, 3k @ 3:10/km, 5 min rest, 2k @ 3:05 km, 5 min rest, 1km sub 3:00)
- 30-45 min easy

Sunday - 70 min easy
- 30-45 min easy

Monday - 80 min run - main set is 800m repeats descending with 400m jog recovery in 2:00 between each. The goal completion time for 800s starts at 2:40 then gets 3 s faster for each one. Usually I do about 9 so the last one should be under 2:16 but sometimes I bail sooner
- 30-45 min easy

Tuesday - 60 min easy
- 30-45 min easy

Wednesday - 90 min run - main set is cascade tempo run on treadmill (9*5 min alternating pace every 5 min from 6:00 min/mile to 5:45, 5:30, 5:45, 5:30, 5:15, 5:30, 5:15, 5:00)
- 30-45 min easy

Thursday - 2 hr long run


I usually do strides and drills before workouts. At the end of some of my easy recovery runs, I'll do a circuit which consists of using 4 corners of a soccer or football field to do arm, ab, back and leg exercises. I'll do a back exercise in one corner, stride diagonally across the field, do an ab exercise, do lunges or running drills across the field to the other corner, do push-ups, stride diagonally across the field, do a leg exercise, lunges or running drill across the field to the corner I started. Usually, I'll do 3 sets of this.

[powerboy]

Yes, some other programs would be good to see. Oldster, you misunderstood my comment about Paul Williams (how many people reading this don't know who he is?) My comment was that I believe that Paul was a very early proponent of tempo running, and that it may have been one of the keys to his first breakthroughs.

[Bomba]

......geeezz u guys sure complicate things..... ;D

Mon: 50-60mins
Tues: long reps in this case something standard and simple 5 x 1600m off 2 1/2 mins (somewhere between 5-10km pace)......could also do 6x 1200s (ala Oldster's session)...or 7-8 x kms off 1mins key idea being hard rhythm pace work....
Wed: 60-70mins
thurs: something short...on track....could be hills, fartlek....whatever works my personal fav....due to achilles i did a monofartlek off track (since so far out make the jogs quick and where the faster parts fall they fall....) ...that takes about 20mins (egs 60 sec hard-medium, 200 hard-medium fartlek style or in sets ala 200m hard-medium, hills could be longer..... the combinations are endless based primarily on the mental and physical makeup of the athlete)...i would argue very strongly that these sessions (at least for 5-10km runners) off a huge benfit without a heavy stress....
Fri: 40-50min really easy
sat: tempo 30-40mins....(20 + 10 or 20 + 20 off 2-3 mins)
Sunday: 90- 2hrs depending on how u feel...but in genenal i would say 1 hr 40min

...throw in a few dbls (say 3-5) of minimum 30 mins and no longer than 40


....in general I would say all training falls into this simple cycle, except that you control the intensity and distances run (egs in build up:
Tues might be 4-5 2kms off 1-2mins mins....
Thurs is done shorter/less intense or medium long run or monfartleks are done with a heavy emphasis on making the medium parts the focus.....or
Sats longer tempos....or tempo fartleks

.....keep in a 2-3 week cycle (egs two up, one down in early phases and one up one down in racing).......it is a progressive, cyclical just enough for the athlete (and coach) to see progress, repeatable yet varied to stop boredom and multifacted (egs tempo suits slow twitch, thurs suits fast twitch and the tues is the middle ground session.....)


..I personally found that I played around with the sat/tempo lengths (egs 20mins or 8 x 3mins off 30 sec) and the Tues intervals (egs no lower than 800 and always a VO2 max style session or during race prearation change of pace sessions egs 5 x 1000m off 2mins of 200m at mile pace off quick recoveries like 40 sec or quicker so still very much a vo2 max physiologial outcome, while also working on mechanics, change of pace, etc...for racing. On Sunday long runs might be more in the 90mins range, while the Thurs monfartlek generally stayed the same all the time (except during a hill phase) during pre and competitive phases

.......and FYI.....this cycle is what I did/have done for yrs and is validated by the general cycles followed by Mo Fareh of the UK and what Mottram did when he ran under 13mins......it also the almost verbatim what Nic Bideau (Mottram's old coach, Benita Willis, Collis Birmingham) wrote in a letter for Matt Johnston when he was living with Mottram back in 2003......

KISS baby.....Keep it simple and stupid

[journeyman]

Thanks Mark. I wouldn't describe your post as simple, but I get what you are saying.

[Angus Macaulay]

Here's a sample week 6 weeks out from our end of season 10km XC champs. i chose this because i've never really peaked for a 5k. only 1500s and 10ks. Sorry for the confounder, but i'll keep the rest as close to your parameters as i can.

I typically divide my time/run by 4.2 to give me km. (4:09 / km on average) I do that for my tempo work and Xs too and total it all up. 4:09s are slow for workouts but fast for jogs. If i know the distance eg track workouts, then i just write down the number.

I count cross training as 2/3s run time ie, 45 min bike = 30 min run.

Core is typically a 25-30 minute session plyo and iso-metric sort of things with intermittent stretching between sets, usually between planks and med-ball stuff there are some push-ups.

Xs are diagonally strides (faster than run pace) across a football field, with the endzone, 50m easy jog recovery between diagonals.

Monday:
workout: 54minuts inc 6x3 minuters (sub anaerobic threshold, 8km race pace) w/ 1rest also 8x400m (3k race pace) on two minutes, and 10 min Xs drills (17.5km)

Tuesday: morning 45min run, 45min bike ride + core (17.5km)

Wednesday: workout
20 minute warm-up. 8km race simulation workout in 24.37(total time of intervals) Intervals range from 400m to 2km, with about 10 intervals and 16minutes static recovery, 7x power hills (70m) , 20 min cool down (18km)

Thursday: 61 minute am run, 50 minute afternoon run + core (26.5km)

Friday: workout
78 minute run inc. 2x 15min tempo (sub threshold again, probably slower than 10k race pace) + 10 minutes of Xs (21km)

Saturday: off day
Sunday: 115minutes (25-26km)

Total weekly volume : 126km

hope that's not too confusing.

cheers